Well, to be fair...there are religions - and even sects of Christianity - that do not believe in Hell. Likewise there are religions without deities that DO teach an eternal punishment.

God's name must be used in a question that speaks if works of righteousness are good enough to save us? You are out of bounds. Cheer up.

Can one be truly righteous if they do not know God and Jesus? Would you remove Jesus' name from the Bible or refuse to say His name in English? (Romans 10:11-18) For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” 12?For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him. 13?For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14?However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15?How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!” 16?Nevertheless, they did not all obey the good news. For Isaiah says: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard from us?” 17?So faith follows the thing heard. In turn, what is heard is through the word about Christ. 18?But I ask, They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, “into all the earth their sound went out, and to the ends of the inhabited earth their message.”

Texasescimo, quote: "Can one be truly righteous if they do not know God and Jesus?" Knowing the Father and the Son is one thing, confessing whose name is another. The question in this subject is not asking for any names. It looks more like Jehovah's Witness propaganda is being spread to push God's name.

Sorry that God's name bothers you. I would think that you would no that just about every religious question has a bit of discussion regardless of the religion of the members discussing. (Exodus 3:15) Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation. (Psalm 97:12) Rejoice in Jehovah, you righteous ones, And give thanks to his holy name. (Psalm 32:11) Rejoice in Jehovah and be joyful, you righteous ones; Shout joyfully, all you who are upright in heart. (Psalm 119:144-146) The righteousness of your reminders is eternal. Give me understanding, so that I may keep living. 145?I call with my whole heart. Answer me, O Jehovah. Your regulations I will observe. 146?I call on you; save me! I will keep your reminders.

Texasescimo, quote: "Sorry that God's name bothers you." You don't even know the actual name of God to begin with. God's name was not given to the Gentiles. In the New Testament, there are no deities or titles to confess other than the name of Jesus. Acts 4:12 "Neither is there Salvation in any other: for there is none other name under Heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Exactamundo.

Matthew 23:35 Abel was a righteous man.

https://rootedandgroundedinchrist.com/2015/04/09/dispelling-a-wrong-interpretation-of-romans-310/

bostjan64, that's the Old Testament before Jesus came to be in the world.

Don't forget verse 10. We are not under works of Law but we still have to do what Jesus says. Ephesians 2:8-10 King James Version (KJV) 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Luke 6:46) Why, then, do you call me Lord! Lord!? but do not do the things I say?

James 2:18) Nevertheless, a certain one will say: You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works. (Gal 2:16) knowing as we do that a man is declared righteous, not due to works of law, but only through faith toward Christ Jesus, even we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, that we may be declared righteous due to faith toward Christ, and not due to works of law, because due to works of law no flesh will be declared righteous (Eph 2:10) For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them (Gal 3:10) For all those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them. (Galatians 2:14) But when I saw they were not walking straight according to the truth of the good news, I said to Cephas before them all: If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do, and not as Jews do, how is it that you are compelling people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice? (Colossians 1:10) in order to walk worthily of Jehovah to the end of fully pleasing [him] as YOU go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the accurate knowledge of God,

(Matthew 7:21) Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one DOING the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. (Luke 13:24) Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able. (Romans 2:13) For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the DOERS of law will be declared righteous. (James 1:22) However, become DOERS of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with FALSE REASONING . (Acts 1:8) But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all JuÂdea and SaÂmariÂa, and to the most distant part of the earth. (2 Corinthians 4:13) Now because we have the same spirit of faith as that of which it is written: exercised faith, therefore I spoke; we too exercise faith and therefore we speak,

Might want to go back and edit out the garbage AB inserted because you cut and pasted instead of keying it in. Its a lot easier to read if you fix it. If you don't know how just use the orange pencil icon to edit. Remove and replace any special characters. And you really should have posted this as your own answer and not a comment on someone else's answer. It makes it look like you are correcting her and there is nothing wrong with her answer. You just have a different one, and that's fine.

Thank you. I will try to edit to get out the strange symbols. Also just trying to show the balance between faith and works as Christians are supposed to have both. No longer under works of Law though.

Oh that looks so much better!! Thank you! And I agree. Faith and works go hand in hand. We could also bring in the topic of charity. 1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

When I first started studying the Bible, I used the KJV. I didn't realize that at 1 Cor 13:1 it translated agape as charity. Interesting, thanks. https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/13/1/t_bibles_1075001

I know people who confuse the translation that says love as eros love. I use KJV exclusively with the help of The Spirit, of course.

Do you agree with the following paragraph? The ancient Greeks had four basic words, used in various forms, to describe love: storge, eros, philia, and agape. Of these, agape is the term used to describe the God who is love. Concerning this love, Professor William Barclay in his New Testament Words says: Agap? has to do with the mind: it is not simply an emotion which rises unbidden in our hearts; it is a principle by which we deliberately live. Agap? has supremely to do with the will. In this context, agape is love that is governed, or guided, by principle, but it is often accompanied by strong emotion. As there are good and bad principles, it is evident that Christians should be guided by good principles, which are laid down in the Bible by Jehovah God himself. When we compare Biblical descriptions of agape with other terms used in the Bible to describe love, we will better understand the love that we should demonstrate

Not entirely. I'm not a Jehova's Witness nor do I wish to be. I have my religion and it differs from yours, thank you. I believe storge love is familial love, eros love is romantic love, philos love is a brotherly or fraternal love, and agape love is Godly love.

Professor William Barclay is not one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't see how we really disagree but if you are looking for something to dispute, you will likely find it. I don't think it is wrong to agree on something once in a while. None of your definitions said CHARITY though.

Hello ya, I am off from AB on the weekends. I will address what needs to be addressed on these comments.

Texasescimo, quote: "Don't forget verse 10. We are not under works of Law but we still have to do what Jesus says." Who said ANYTHING about being under works??? This deserves a *Facepalm* Verse 10 is not a demand to practice good works. If you read the verse properly, it is symbolically saying Christians are already created in Christ's workmanship to walk in His image. Once a person is created in Christ's workmanship, a Christian does not rely on practicing good works. It is a gift God prepared in advance for us to do. Romans 13:14 "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires."

Texasescimo, in James 2:18, you cannot show anyone "your works" if you are not created in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:27 "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

Texasescimo, quote: "When I first started studying the Bible, I used the KJV. I didn't realize that at 1 Cor 13:1 it translated agape as charity." Charity simply means "generosity" in the Merriam Webster dictionary: Definition of charity 1a : generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering also : aid given to those in need https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/charity

Quote from JR: " Who said ANYTHING about being under works??? " Your first 3 words in your answer: "Not of works"

Quote: [Texasescimo, in James 2:18, you cannot show anyone "your works" if you are not created in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:27 "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."] What is your point? Are you disagreeing with the scriptures that I posted in my second comment? All I did was post the scriptures. Sorry if you do not like those verses.

Thank you for your definition of charity. After 911 there were several interviews of under privileged Islamic children talking about how charitable Osama Bin Ladin was. We were actually talking about the definition of agape. Pretty sure most scholars agree that it is Love. The KJV translates agape as Love more than it does charity. Love makes sense in every verse agape is in, charity does not. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G26&t=KJV

I said my religion differs from yours, and I wasn't looking for disputes, rather confirming what we agree on. I think focusing on that is more important than contending the differences. But we should each be allowed to believe as we choose. And its charity not CHERITY. But that would be agape.

Thank you. I fixed it.

Texasescimo, quote: "Your first 3 words in your answer: "Not of works"" You are taking my first 3 words and Ephesians 2:8-9 out of context, as well as my comment, cause (I did not say we are under works from our own accord). That is what you're seeing. Salvation has NEVER been about practicing good works as if it were a rank status. Good works are already given to Christians during God's transformation. What then do you suppose lest any man should boast mean in verse 9??????? It is all in the transformation in Ephesians 2:10 to be created in God's workmanship.

Texasescimo, quote: "What is your point? Are you disagreeing with the scriptures that I posted in my second comment?" Actually, I agree with all the scriptures, just as long as they are quoted in context. You continue to take words out of context. When I said, "you cannot show anyone your works" if you are not created in Christ is a process of the flesh to mention Galatians 3:27. Once again: Galatians 3:27 "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Perfect sense when a person is baptized and transformed into being Christ-like.

Texasescimo, quote: "Love makes sense in every verse agape is in, charity does not." You have the word charity all twisted. Charity is the EPITOME of perfection in the Christian life. According to your link, love and charity also mean the same thing: agape from G25; love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast: (feast of) charity(-ably), dear, love." The synonyms of the word generosity: bigheartedness, bountifulness, bounty, generousness, largesse (also largess), liberality, munificence, openhandedness, openheartedness, philanthropy, unselfishness" For a further definition of the word charity in the Merriam Webster dictionary: 2 : [benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity]" This deserves a *Double *Facepalm* I don't see what's your point in how the word love and charity differ when both words resemble each other.

Oh brother. Why does this bother you so much? Don't forget verse 10. We are not under works of Law but we still have to do what Jesus says.

Charity does not embrace the full definition of agape. "According to your link, love and charity also mean the same thing: agape from G25" That is because they are working backwards from KJV usage, going back to the original word agape.

JR, back to my first comment that ruffled your feathers, are you saying that everyone that believes in Jesus automatically obeys Him in everything or that you do not need to obey Him at all because you are saved by faith alone? (Romans 3:19, 20) Now we know that all the things the Law says, it addresses to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be silenced and all the world may become accountable to God for punishment. 20?Therefore, no one will be declared righteous before him by works of law, for by law comes the accurate knowledge of sin. . . My first comment that ruffled your feathers: on't forget verse 10. We are not under works of Law but we still have to do what Jesus says. Ephesians 2:8-10 King James Version (KJV) 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Luke 6:46) Why, then, do you call me Lord! Lord!? but do not do the things I say?

Texasescimo, quote: "Why does this bother you so much? Don't forget verse 10. We are not under works of Law but we still have to do what Jesus says." Don't forget there are 2 laws. God's Law and the Mosaic law. only God's Law is capitalized. You are misunderstanding my answer and my comments. How am I forgetting about verse 10 when I am saying God's workmanship will enable us to do good works without us even knowing that we're doing them? That is how Christians know they are not under works, since Salvation is not EARNED.

Texasescimo, quote: "Charity does not embrace the full definition of agape." It just did according to your link and according the Merriam Webster dictionary, along with my explanation of EPITOME. Matthew 5:42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you." Yet again, charity is all about giving to bring up the word love. With added scriptures: charity and generosity define the word love: "4a : unselfish loyal and benevolent (see BENEVOLENT sense 1a) concern for the good of another:" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/love Once more, perfect sense. You are not going to tell me the Merriam Webster dictionary is not reliable dictionary or else, this deserves a *Triple Facepalm.*

Quote: "are you saying that everyone that believes in Jesus automatically obeys Him in everything or that you do not need to obey Him at all because you are saved by faith alone?" Ephesians 2:8-10 has always been a controversial passage among many so-called Christians who live a sinful life and think they can never lose their Salvation. That's not what we believe. We believe obedience comes into play during the transformation. Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." Without the transformation, we start depending on good works to make us feel good about ourselves, just like many non-believers who also practice good works: https://www.atheists.org/support/donate/2019-service/ That doesn't mean non-believers are saved for their good works.

Broken record with all of your facepalm. Facepalm. Facepalm. Facepalm. John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have CHARITY G26 one to another. Romans 12:9 Let CHARITY G26 be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Not sure why you are making a big deal about me including verse 10? I know you have often said how good of a professional debater you are. Might think about this: (2 Timothy 2:23) Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights.

Texasescimo, quote: "Broken record with all of your facepalm." Not quite, the facepalms keep unfolding everything you think you have a comeback. I am not saying a Christian should live a sinful life and think he or she is still saved. That sounds more like the Baptist concept of Once Saved, Always Saved. I am also letting you know that we are not under works (in the sense) of practicing good works as if it were a rank status. We do the good works, because we are transformed into the image of Christ. Non-believers practice good works from their own understanding. The results of it is the flesh: Romans 8:6 "For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace."

Texasescimo, to the word charity, I am sure you don't like how the word charity sounds. It is understandable for a reader who is not used to saying the word charity to dislike it. We're in 2019, speaking Archaic English in this modern world will confuse many, unless they do a research on the word charity. 1 Corinthians 13:4 "Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,"

Texasescimo, when we speak of love that is all about generosity and benevolence: charity never ceases to produce in the Christian life. I don't know if English is your first language, but just in case it isn't, kindness is a synonym of benevolence. NO ONE can deny how kindness and benevolence lead to love. By definition, love means "(2) : brotherly concern for others" or "7 : the sexual embrace" In this case, it's all about brotherly love when it comes to giving.

ANYONE who cares to discuss the famous expression of brotherly love: I am feeling something coming upon me. Should I change my name to Pastor Jenny Rizzo or leave it as is?

So then why not just translate agape as charity throughout and forget love? Of course, Bin Laden and some other terrorist give charity to those of their own (Mt 5:47). That is charity.

Texasescimo, quote: "Of course, Bin Laden and some other terrorist give charity" Is this your comeback? PEOPLE: haven't ya heard how charity and loving someone can be done in a "hypocritical" way??? *Quadruple Facepalm*

Facepalm Facepalm Facepalm. Charity is Charity. Love is Love. You should say love as much as you say Facepalm. Agape is Love. God is Love.

Texasescimo, a facepalm is not an insult. It simply means to make an error. Quote: "Agape is Love. God is Love." Inasmuch as God is all about giving to speak of love. (John 3:16)

Replacing all-encompassing love with charity gets: (Matthew 23:23, 24) “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24?Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!

Texasescimo, quote: "Replacing all-encompassing love with charity gets: (Matthew 23:23, 24)" Not exactly. The word charity is the foundation of generosity and helpfulness to fulfill love.

"There is not a word in the Bible that means a literal Hell Fire." Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire."

I didn't say that there are no versions that say hell. I am referring to the meaning in the original language. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+5%3A22&version=YLT;WEB;NASB;NLT;EXB Matthew 5:22 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 22 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the GEHENNA of the fire. https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat5.pdf geennan geennan G1067 n_ Acc Sg f GEHENNA

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/gehenna/ Dictionaries - Easton's Bible Dictionary - Gehenna Gehenna [N] [B] [S] (originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., "the valley of the sons of Hinnom"), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech ( 2 Chronicles 28:3 ; 33:6 ; Jeremiah 7:31 ; 19:2-6 ). This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense it is used by our Lord in Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:29 Matthew 5:30 ; 10:28 ; 18:9 ; Matthew 23:15 Matthew 23:33 ; Mark 9:43 Mark 9:45 Mark 9:47 ; Luke 12:5 . In these passages, and also in James 3:6 , the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing "Gehenna" in the margin. (See HELL; HINNOM .)

Do you know the difference between Gehenna, Hades, and Sheol in the original languages 2,000 years ago? https://biblehub.com/job/14-13.htm Job 14:13 Douay-Rheims Bible Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in HELL, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me?

Gehenna in this context is obviously not the geographical place. It's the place where wicked people go. In the pagan religion of England prior to the introduction of Christianity, Hell was the place where wicked people went. The two concepts are one in the same. ( http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna#345 ) So, anytime you see Gehenna in scriptures where it is not specifically referring to the Valley of Gehenna, it means Hell.

According to the Talmud, not according to the Bible. In Jesus day Gehenna was a garbage dump where garbage, carcasses of dead animals and bodies of criminals not deemed worthy of a burial were burned. Trying to say they meant Hell but wrote Gehenna is a bit disingenuous.

No, being disingenuous would be conflating words. You are talking about the valley of ben-Hinnom. Gehenna is the Hebrew word for the place where bad things are burned. You are trying to conflate the meanings of similar things and call it a mistranslation, when I don't believe you understand how these passages were translated, nor do you seem to care to look into the neighbouring verses to understand the context.

Pretty sure that I am the one that told you the history of Gehenna while you put forth as if Hell was the correct word and now you are trying to put it forth as if you told me about Gehenna and it's history. You are also the one that quoted Matthew 5:22 alone with no other verses. How is it you say that I don't care to loo into the neighboring verses to understand the context? What neighboring verses give the context of immortal souls being consciously tormented forever? Is anything still burning in Gehenna? Gehenna is a fitting symbol for destroyed completely without a chance of resurrection since at the time Jesus was on earth it was a garbage dump and those around him were familiar with that just like they knew that a mustard grain was among the tiniest seeds in their area and they knew what sheep and goats were. Putting people alive in Gehenna had not even come up in to God's heart. (Jeremiah 7:31) They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’

Can you try to answer this correctly this time? Do you know the difference between Gehenna, Hades, and Sheol in the original languages 2,000 years ago? https://biblehub.com/job/14-13.htm Job 14:13 Douay-Rheims Bible Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in HELL, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me?

I guess your conclusion couldn't be any more wrong and your reading comprehension is to blame ...continuing Revelations 20 where you left off from verse 11: "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

So is Revelation always literal? What is death? What is Hades? What is the lake of fire?

Of course it's not literal, nor was it ever meant to be literal. Death is the cessation of life. Whatever the lake of fire is in verse 10 is the same lake of fire in the rest of chapter 20.

Yes, lake of fire means total annihilation. Second death just means death from which there is no resurrection. No more death, no more hades. (Hades- common grave of mankind) Notice that hell is thrown in to the lake of fire, not is the lake of fire. Rev 20:13-14 KJV And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 21:3, 4) With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ?Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.?

It might be worth bearing in mind the many verses that God is referred to as a "Consuming fire," or related to fire. Fire is a purifier, a refiner, it burns the flesh but not the spirit. https://www.sermoncentral.com/sermons/a-consuming-fire-peter-parry-sermon-on-descriptions-of-god-43774

Hello Creamcrackered. What is the wages of sin? (Romans 6:23) For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord. (Deuteronomy 9:3) Therefore, you should know this day that Jehovah your God will cross ahead of you. He is a consuming fire, and he will annihilate them. He will subdue them before your eyes so that you may quickly drive them out and destroy them, just as Jehovah has promised you. What is the condition of the dead? (Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going. (Psalm 146:3, 4) Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4?His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.

On a side note, if the soul is immortal with all the good going to heaven and all the bad going to Hell as most seem to believe, why didn't John and David go to heaven? (Matthew 11:11) Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. (Acts 2:34) For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, Jehovah said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand (Ezekiel 18:4) Look! All the souls to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

John and David didn't go to heaven because Christ hadn't died, been resurrected, and returned. Christ is the spiritual Adam, sin and death had entered he world through earthly Adam. Christ is the eternal priest of the order of Melchizedek, where as in the temple a priest goes behind the veil and makes sin offering for the people and himself, Christ enters into heaven to do this, he could not do this before the resurrection for their was no sanctification, Christ overcomes death for us. He is the first born of heaven. The bread of life. (See Hebrews). Rev 2:11 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death. Rev 20: 11-14 Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death?the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Well said. So you don't believe in the inherent immortality of the soul? You are in agreement with these, yes? (John 14:3, 4) Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be. 4 And where I am going, you know the way.? (John 3:13) Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Hello guys and gals, I do agree with Texasescimo and his comment of: "What is the wages of sin? (Romans 6:23) For the wages sin pays is death," Hell does mean death. Doing a research on the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades will clarify the meaning. Sheol and Hades is the underworld of the dead.

Texasescimo, let's go to Revelation 20:14 that Creamcrackered brought up. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. If we use some logic: Death, Hades and the lake of fire will all be the same once they get thrown down by Scripture. Not 2 or 3, but 1 in the same at the coming of Christ. In the meantime, death/hell has not been thrown into the lake of fire. If it did, we wouldn't be talking about it.

On immortality - The Resurrection of the Dead Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. On hell Rev 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I will like to touch on the subject of immorality as some denominations do not believe in Eternal damnation. Jesus said in Matthew 25:46 and John 5:29 that those who have done good will rise to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of damnation. We have to examine what Jesus meant by the word damnation. What comes to mind, the second death explained in the book of Revelation. Revelation 21:8 "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." As any theologian can solve the meaning of the second death: it indicates Eternal separation from God. Creamcrackered mentioned a passage from Paul, "Death is swallowed up into victory," which is the Christian hope of Eternal Life. We can voluntarily embrace being buried and resurrected with Jesus. Knowing the confidence we have, the second death has no jurisdiction over us. Acts 24:15 "having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust."

It sounds like more than a separation from God, "tormented with fire and brimstone in "the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." This states tormented by fire and brimstone in the presence of angels and the Lamb, and that torment is forever and ever with no rest. Luke 16:24 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side. So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this flame.’ But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer.…

Our ' soul' IS our air breathing body...It can die...If it were separate and spirtitual it would NOT die. (Ezekiel 18:4) Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die. (Ezekiel 18:20) The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will bear no guilt because of the error of his father, and a father will bear no guilt because of the error of his son. The righteousness of the righteous one will be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked one will be accounted to him alone. You have to be alive in the flesh to die...so the ' soul' is US.

Creamcrackered, quote: "It sounds like more than a separation from God," That is what the second death is about. It is complete annihilation. In the first death, people die physically, and then at the second death they die spiritually. Before the spiritual death takes place, there are consequences to pay. It doesn't make sense to commit wicked deeds, and expect to get away with it. the word damnation Jesus mentioned is leads to condemnation to speak accurately in definition by Matthew 25:46 and John 5:29. Quote: "Luke 16:24 23 In Hades, where he was in torment," Luke chapter 16 is a Parable of the final prophecies to come when Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire. Spiritual death means to be separated from the plan and purposes of God. One of the most popular verses anyone can remember is John 3:16. To amplify the verse: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him (His teachings) will not perish (in the lake of fire), but have Eternal Life.

pugs, the word soul in Hebrew is "nephesh." The Bible refers to people and animals as souls. In the Bible’s creation account, we read: English Standard Version: "then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into His nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a [living creature]." Genesis 2:7 King James Version: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a [living soul]." "Then God said: Let the waters swarm with living creatures [souls, footnote], and let flying creatures fly above the Earth across the expanse of the heavens. Then God said: Let the Earth bring forth living creatures [souls, footnote] according to their kinds, domestic animals and creeping animals and wild animals of the Earth according to their kinds." (Genesis 1:20, 24)

pugs, as you SEE, how are you going to prove people and animals are equal???????

Man, what a cruel God some believe in. My God will not remain resentful forever. Death is the punishment for sin. The dead are Unconscious rather than conscious of pain. It never even came up in to God's heart to burn his children. (Psalm 103:9) He will not always find fault, Nor will he stay resentful forever. (Romans 6:23) For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord. (Psalm 146:3, 4) Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going. (Jeremiah 7:31) They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’

The wages sin pays is death"(Romans 6:23),not an immortal soul burning in Hell. "The soul that sins itself will die"(Ez 18:4) Matthew 5:22 speaks of those liable to “hell fire” or “Gehenna”. To use “hell fire” gives a false idea, for in the original Greek it reads gehenna of fire; gehenna is the Greek for the Hebrew ge?i-Hinnom, meaning “valley of Hinnom”. This valley lay to the west and south of ancient Jerusalem. During the time of the later kings of Judah it was used in the idolatrous worship of Molech, human sacrifices being offered to this god by fire. (Josh. 15:8; 2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31, 32; 32:35) To prevent its use again for such horrible religious purposes faithful King Josiah had it polluted and it came to be the dumping place and incinerator for the refuse of Jerusalem. (2 Ki. 23:10) The dead bodies of animals were thrown in, to be consumed by the fires kept burning there and to which sulphur or brimstone was added to assist the burning. Even bodies of executed criminals thought too vile to have a resurrection were disposed of there. If the bodies did not reach the fires but lodged on a ledge of the deep ravine worms (maggots) consumed them. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4663&t=NASB

Everlasting fire is symbolic of everlasting cutting-off or the second death. (Matthew 25:41) “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. (Matthew 10:28) And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge?hen?na. (2 Peter 2:6) and by reducing the cities Sod?om and Go?mor?rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come; (Jude 7) So too Sod?om and Go?mor?rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire. (Revelation 20:14) And death and Ha?des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. (Daniel 12:2) And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence. (2 Thessalonians 1:9) These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, (Matthew 25:46) And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

Link to several translations of Psalms 16:10 http://bible.cc/psalms/16-10.htm Link to Acts 2:27 http://bible.cc/acts/2-27.htm Notice that the Greek Hades is the same as the Hebrew Sheol. Translators try to translate Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna as Hell to support that idea. The Douay Rheims actually has Job praying to be protected in Hell. http://bible.cc/job/14-13.htm Genesis 2:7 tells us: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” The account does not say that God implanted in man an immortal soul. It says that when God’s power energized Adam’s body, he “came to be a living soul.” So man is a soul. He does not have a soul. God created Adam to live on earth, not in heaven. Earth was not to be a mere testing ground to see if Adam qualified for heaven. God formed the earth “to be inhabited,” and Adam was its first human inhabitant. (Isaiah 45:18; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Later, when God created Eve as a wife for Adam, God’s purpose for them was that they should populate the earth and turn it into a paradise as humankind’s eternal home.—Genesis 1:26-31; Psalm 37:29. Nowhere does the Bible say that part of Adam was immortal. On the contrary, his existence was conditional, based on obedience to God’s law. If he broke that law, what then? Eternal life in the spirit realm? Not at all. Instead, he would “positively die.” (Genesis 2:17) He would go back where he came from: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 2:7; 3:19) Adam had no existence before he was created, and he would have none after he died. So he had only two choices: (1) obedience and life or (2) disobedience and death. If Adam had not sinned, he would have lived on earth forever. He would never have gone to heaven. Adam disobeyed, and he died. (Genesis 5:5) Death was his punishment. It was not a doorway to a “glorious adventure” but a doorway to nonexistence. Thus, death is not a friend but is what the Bible calls it, an “enemy.” (1 Corinthians 15:26) If Adam had had an immortal soul that would go to heaven if he was obedient, then death would have been a blessing. But it was not. It was a curse. And with Adam’s sin, the curse of death spread to all humans because all are his offspring.—Romans 5:12. Further, if Adam had been created with an immortal soul that would be tormented forever in a fiery hell if he sinned, why was he not warned about this? Why was he only told that he would die and return to dust? How unfair it would have been to condemn Adam to an eternity of torture for disobedience, yet not warn him about it! However, with God “there is no injustice.” (Deuteronomy 32:4) There was no need to warn Adam about a fiery hell for the immortal souls of the wicked. Such a hell did not exist, nor did immortal souls exist. (Jeremiah 19:5; 32:35) There is no eternal torment in the dust of the ground.

Luke 15 and 16 have several parables. Not everyone will get the since of them. Remember, sheep and goats do not usually mean farm animals. The problem seems to be that many preachers start off with a parable or something given in signs such as Revelation, and the try to get everything else to fit in with a literal interpretation of that. Luke 15:3 "Then he spoke this illustration to them, saying: 4 “What man of YOU with a hundred sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the ninety-nine behind in the wilderness and go for the lost one until he finds it?" Luke 15:8 "Or what woman with ten drachma coins, if she loses one drachma coin, does not light a lamp and sweep her house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it she calls the women who are her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found the drachma coin that I lost" Luke 15:11 "Then he said: “A certain man had two sons" Luke 16:1 "Then he went on to say also to the disciples: “A certain man was rich and he had a steward.." Luke 16:19 "But a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. 20 But a certain beggar named Laz?a?rus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers"

What about "The Rich Man and Lazarus"—What Is the Lesson? JESUS CHRIST often taught a lesson by telling a story. Here is how Jesus began one famous story: “A certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. But a certain beggar named Lazarus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.” So Jesus simply said a certain man was rich, dressed expensively and ate well, while Lazarus was hungry, covered with ulcers and licked by dogs. Was this a story about real people? No. The Catholic Jerusalem Bible in a footnote explains that this is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” Note why, from what Jesus next says: “Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom position of Abraham. Also, the rich man died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in the bosom position with him. So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’”—Luke 16:19-24. As you can see, Jesus said nothing about the rich man’s living a degraded life worthy of fiery punishment; the man’s failing was that he did not feed the poor. Further, Jesus said nothing about Lazarus’ doing good things, things that clearly would merit his going to heaven, which is what some churches claim is the meaning of his being taken to Abraham’s bosom. Furthermore, Abraham, like David, was dead and in his grave, so angels literally could not carry Lazarus to his bosom. (Acts 2:29, 34; John 3:13) And if the rich man were in a literal fire, surely Lazarus could not benefit him with just a drop of water! Who, then, was pictured by the rich man and who by Lazarus? What was represented by their deaths? The rich man pictured the self-important religious leaders who failed to feed the people spiritually, and Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted Jesus Christ. Their deaths represented a change in their condition. This change, or death to the former condition of the rich man and of Lazarus, occurred when Jesus fed the neglected Lazaruslike people spiritually. Thus, they came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the self-important Jewish religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor and came to be tormented by the teachings of Christ and his followers. For example, when Stephen publicly exposed them, “they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth . . . and put their hands over their ears.” They felt torment.—Acts 7:51-57. So rather than teaching a fiery-hell torment after death, Jesus’ story describes the change of condition that his teachings accomplished among two classes of people.

According to the DRB, some will get out of hell. Psalms 49:15 (Douay-Rheims Bible) But God will redeem my soul from the hand of hell, when he shall receive me. http://bible.cc/psalms/49-15.htm According to the KJV, some will get out of hell. Rev 20:13 (King James Bible) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. http://bible.cc/revelation/20-13.htm In regards to Matthew 25:46, notice what Vine's says: kolazo primarily denotes "to curtail, prune, dock" (from kolos, "docked"); then, "to check, restrain, punish;" it is used in the Middle Voice in Acts_4:21; Passive Voice in 2_Pet_2:9, AV, "to be punished" (RV, "under punishment," lit., "being punished"), a futurative present tense. kolasis akin to kolazo kolazo_under_PUNISH), "punishment," is used in Matt_25:46, "(eternal) punishment," and 1_John_4:18, "(fear hath) punishment," RV (AV, "torment"), which there describes a process, not merely an effect; this kind of fear is expelled by perfect love; where God's love is being perfected in us, it gives no room for the fear of meeting with His reprobation; the "punishment" referred to is the immediate consequence of the sense of sin, not a holy awe but a slavish fear, the negation of the enjoyment of love.

For Jenny..." souls" are living on the earth, breathing...both us and animals...but we are NOT the same in abilities....animals operate on instinct...we do not. we are thinkers, for right or wrong. A lion does not think it is right when it kills to eat. That is instinctive of preservation. We have thought or way into the nuclear age....but we are all still ' souls'...

In Revelations 14:9-11 it states "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. It states they shall be tormented IN FRONT OF the holy angels and the Lamb, with fire and brimstone FOR EVER AND EVER. This is not a separation from God, it is in the presence of, it is not intermittent, it is eternal. This is echoed in Luke 16:24 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side. So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this flame.’ But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer.… It is the same again in Revelations 20: 7-9 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore. And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER. There is no where that says this fire stops burning or that they are simply dead in fact quite the contrary. God is not wicked, he gives his only begotten son Jesus Christ, in the old testament prophecy Emmanuel means God is With Us. Jesus is the priest of heaven. This is God being merciful, even with sin Gods grace increases. Jesus is given all authority Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. And it is by HIS NAME that brings salvation, Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is NONE OTHER name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. As for spirit and soul - 1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Note this is OT in NT the dead shall be judged). James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Luke 16:19-24 is a parable. Revelation is mostly symbolic, or given in signs. Soul is mortal and can be destroyed. Mt 10:28; Ezek 18:24. Adam was a soul, not had an immortal soul Gen 2:7. Please give me the verses that say the soul is immortal. If there are none, then go back and read the rest of the scriptures including what I already posted.

Texasescimo, that shotgun approach does not work with me. You're not going to blow me away. It might scare the Christians who rarely read the Bible. I have Scripture to support my claims. Quote: "Death is the punishment for sin. The dead are Unconscious rather than conscious of pain." The first death involves unconsciousness as explained in the book of Ecclesiastes as you are aware: Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten." The second death is in spirit as mentioned already in Revelation 21:8. You can't prove humans do not have a spirit. Obviously the spirit exists in the resurrection.

Texasescimo, quote: " Soul is mortal and can be destroyed." You have no idea what you're saying. Anything for the sake of Jehovah's Witness propaganda. A soul and a spirit are not the same thing. Go back to Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 1:20, 24.

Creamcrackered, I will show you a trick on how to pop these balloons. Texasescimo can unload 10 long comments as I have went around the world with him on the old Answerbag many times. I actually own him and his old Jehovah's Witness friends. The way to defeat him in a debate, let him give you everything he has and don't get intimidated by his long verbosity. The more comments the better. All it takes is 1 error or contradiction in a comment to ruin his other posts.

[Texasescimo, quote: " Soul is mortal and can be destroyed." You have no idea what you're saying. ] (Ezekiel 18:4) Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Where did I say soul and spirit are the same thing?

Quote: [I actually own him and his old buddies, as he knows well I am undefeated. ] (Proverbs 16:18, 19) Pride is before a crash, And a haughty spirit before stumbling. 19?Better to be humble among the meek Than to share the spoil of the haughty. (1 Corinthians 13:4) Love(Agape) is patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up, (James 3:14) But if you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in your hearts, do not be bragging and lying against the truth.

I have no idea what you are both disagreeing over anymore, enjoy your day.

Texasescimo, quote: "(Ezekiel 18:4) Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die." You can't be serious, cause all the souls are speaking of God's Creation. Once more, you have to go back to the creation of mankind were souls are mentioned in Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 1:20. 24. Let's see what the scriptures say...

New World Translation from the Jehovah's Witness: Genesis 2:7 :And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust+ from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life,+ and the man became a [living person]." King James Version: Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a [living soul]."

Creamcrackered, the new discussion we have going is about Texasescimo and pugwashjv claiming souls and spirits are the same thing. It is funny how I had a conversation with some Jehovah's Witness in person, and they agreed that a soul isn't a spirit. Also from the Watchtower: ======================================="Let us now consider the Bible’s use of the term "spirit." Some people think that "spirit" is just another word for "soul." However, that is not the case. The Bible makes clear that "spirit" and "soul" refer to two different things."======================================= https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005156

Texasescimo and pugs, ya just got owned again.

Again, Please show where either one of us said that souls and spirits are the same thing? While you are at it, please show me where either of us said that animals are superior to humans as you also claimed. Please try to be honest.

Texasescimo, it looks like some comments were EDITED. I am being honest in comparison to the teachings of Christendom who teach the soul and the spirit are the same thing. The SDA church as a minority organization believes the soul and spirit are two different things, as I have pointed out in Scripture. When I said the second death is in the spirit and can be destroyed, pugwashjv's supposedly rebuttal to disprove the second death was made clear: "Our ' soul' IS our air breathing body...It can die..." What he is implying is that there is no second death. Then you stated in regards to the second death: "Revelation is mostly symbolic, or given in signs. Soul is mortal and can be destroyed." The argument here is how the soul can be destroyed, including the spirit in the second death.

I have a lot of trouble following you. Are you claiming that one of us made the claim and then changed it?

Texasescimo, Answerbag does have the edit feature. Ya either edited the comments or ya don't know what the discussion is about.

Texasescimo, where were we? :D

Not everyone who dies goes to heaven...only 14,000 out of everyone who has ever lived since Adam & Eve..Revelation 7:4 & 14:1 Heaven already has its regular population of angels...

So what are you saying then; we are useless and doomed anyway with no Saviour? I agree that not everyone goes to Heaven. Which was the reason for my comment :) Only those of us who know Jesus will be in Heaven.

Pretty sure pug meant 144,000. Obviously David and John did not go to heaven. What are those that go to heaven going to do there? Not everyone goes to heaven. (Romans 11:25) For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, (John 1:11-12) He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. 12 However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; (Matthew 22:2) “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man, a king, that made a marriage feast for his son. (Matthew 22:14) “For there are many invited, but few chosen.” (Revelation 7:4) And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: (Revelation 14:1) And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. (Revelation 14:3) And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. (Luke 12:32) “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom. (Romans 11:12) Now if their false step means riches to the world, and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will the full number of them mean it! http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4138&t=NASB

Prior to Jesus’ death, no one had gone to heaven and John and David, both of whom are put in a good light, did not go to heaven. (John 3:13) Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. (Matthew 11:11) Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. (Acts 2:34) Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says,‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, (Acts 13:22) And after removing him, he raised up for them David as king, respecting whom he bore witness and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jes?se, a man agreeable to my heart, who will do all the things I desir

The choosing of the ones that go to heaven is not up to us: (Romans 9:4) who, as such, are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises; (Romans 9:8) That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed. (Romans 9:11) for when they had not yet been born nor had practiced anything good or vile, in order that the purpose of God respecting the choosing might continue dependent, not upon works, but upon the One who calls, (Romans 9:16) So, then, it depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy . . . . . . . . What are those that go to heaven going to do there?

No ...we are NOT ' doomed'...We , after death, will be resurrected...Revelation 20: 12,13 And it is then we will be judged, not on what we did wrong when alive, but on our acceptance of the standards of the Kingdom that is now [ after Armageddon ] in operation, with jesus as the ' crowned' [ by Jehovah ] King.

All could be saved, but the offer is there, if you ignore the offer then that is choice, that's what God gives, choice.