Uh ok.

Wakko, how do you respond to the comments I left you in my answer?

gimme permalink

Wakko, you don't need a permalink. I also answered the question in this subject. I left you another comment in my answer to keep you updated.

In case you are somehow deceived, I AM NOT a follower of Jenny Rizzo. You are definitely not my god, nor my guide.

Wakko, how malicious of you. I am only leaving you comments in your answer so you can know when you receive feedback in my answer.

Trust me, you have NOT seen malicious from me yet, but I foresee a PB in my near future if you don't back up off me. It will be worth it when I blow your wig back, and I won't hold back. Yes, this is the response you were after. I clearly see who your god is.

Wakko, you don't understand. If you leave comments on other answers, you will not receive feedback. You can only receive comments when you answer a question. I am a professional debater. I don't want to take advantage of you. That's why I'm letting you know in your answer when you get feedback in my answer. Quote: " I clearly see who your god is." Okey-dokey.

Actually the King James Bible is not considered a version... just sayin’. Thanks for your reply.

You're welcome. But I have heard so many others all my life who calls it a KJV version. So that is why I call it a version of God's words.There are the NKJV which I never will read again because the author changed the words to mean other than it is supposed to mean. Plus the Satanic image that is in mine. But since the author removed that symbol and left the words the same.

Hmmm, what does the V mean in KJV? Also, which Version of the King James is not considered a Version? Notice the original Version of the King James from 1611 and then other translations or versions below: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Psalms-83-18/ That men may knowe, that thou, whose name alone is IEHOVAH: art the most High ouer all the earth.

That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth. - King James Version That they may know that You alone, whose name is the LORD, Are the Most High over all the earth. - New American Standard Version (1995) That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth. Psalm 84 For the Chief Musician; set to the Gittith. A Psalm of the sons of Korah. - American Standard Version (1901) So that men may see that you only, whose name is Yahweh, are Most High over all the earth. - Basic English Bible That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth. - Darby Bible That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. - Webster's Bible that they may know that you alone, whose name is Yahweh, are the Most High over all the earth. For the Chief Musician. On an instrument of Gath. A Psalm by the sons of Korah. - World English Bible And they know that Thou -- (Thy name [is] Jehovah -- by Thyself,) [Art] the Most High over all the earth! - Youngs Literal Bible (83:19) That they may know that it is Thou alone whose name is the LORD, the Most High over all the earth. - Jewish Publication Society Bible

Hmm I thought you believed in another text ...as well. Anyway, thanks for your reply

Why would you think that?

.

The book of the cave of treasures

The book of the Cave of Treasures was one of the books considered for the Bible but did not make it into the Bible. Many of the books that were rejected by the Counsel of Trent are now available for reading and studying. Only those with myopic vision would reject the opportunity to learn more about the Lord God, Jesus Christ and a host of the others included in the Bible. To refuse to learn is a shame.

Jesus Christ IS the Lord God. What a shame you don?t know that.

Yes, I know the Word and He and the Lord God and Holy Spirit and study about them much of my time and read as much of their writings as I can as long as it is not from false religions. I don't think you have intestinal fortitude enough to google the Book of the Cave of Treasures and read any of it.

You may be right, but God did not instruct me in that matter or I would.

Did you ever think the Lord God may be using me to inform you to additional information about His great world and those whom developed it? By your continued rejection tends me to think you might be a JW who is not allowed to learn more than the JW bible.

God uses his holy scriptures to instruct me. Via the Holy Spirit. Have you never read that we should not add or take away from the word he has given ? :Revelaton 22:18,19

You did not hear me say Jesus Christ IS God? JW,s believe he is a god

Did you not also hear me when I said I am King James only?

OK, you got me there. anyway reading the three books I have recommended only expand on the knowledge of Bible and to refuse such knowledge is what makes satan happy doing his best to keep people ignorant of the truth. Josephus is widely accepted as an early historian of the Bible and the people back then the three books I have recommended are in the same category.

Reading your subversive texts and telling everyone its o.k. to have sex with your own mother is not following the KJV which clearly states in Leviticus 18: "6 ? None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the Lord. 7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8 The nakedness of thy father?s wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father?s nakedness. 9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10 The nakedness of thy son?s daughter, or of thy daughter?s daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness. 11 The nakedness of thy father?s wife?s daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father?s sister: she is thy father?s near kinswoman. 13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother?s sister: for she is thy mother?s near kinswoman. 14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father?s brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt. 15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son?s wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother?s wife: it is thy brother?s nakedness. 17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son?s daughter, or her daughter?s daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness. 18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time. 19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. 20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour?s wife, to defile thyself with her. 21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord. 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. 30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God."

To leave a side note when choosing certain versions: I do quote the English Standard Version and the Amplified Version when I see basic religious questions. When I come across controversial religious questions, the KJV is sharper than any two-edged sword version and any other religious book you can throw at it.

Jesus is not God. He is the son of God, sits at the right hand of God, prayed to God (not himself), etc.

Jesus is God manifested in the flesh. 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: [God was manifest in the flesh], justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

Quote: "He is the son of God, sits at the right hand of God," The Father calls Jesus God. Hebrews 1:8 "But of the Son He says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom."

Quote: "prayed to God (not himself)," There is nothing wrong with praying to the Father. Praying is based on "communication."

As for etc, I have numerous verses that further prove Jesus is God. Do you mind coming down here so we can discuss them?

You can google the extensive discussions between Texasescimo and myself if you want.

You can do that as well with me. I am a Jehovah's Witness stumper. I have discussed with Texasescimo, Nick Batchelor and no_one special, Perryman and Nightcrawler to look in my list of discussions. I had a discussion with all 5 of them at the same time in the old Answerbag by myself. The comments made it over 500 comments. If it's 5 or 10 members all at once that want to gang up on me, it makes no difference to me.

YOU feel ganged up on? LMFAO!!! For one, I am not, nor will I ever be, a JW, so get that in your head right off the bat. I DO NOT share in their beliefs, nor in their doctrine. In fact, I don't really believe in anyone's doctrine. I walk with God one-on-one. My relationship with him is like no other, or to sum it up, it's personal. How you defend whatever it is you believe in is on you. I don't feel I have to defend my God whatsoever.

Quote: "YOU feel ganged up on?" Actually, I am a one woman gang. I know the Jehovah's Witness tactics. Whenever they are not able to go one on one with a religious member who goes against their teachings, they would email a few of their buddies in the old AB for support. If the discussion didn't go their way, they would email even more of their buddies to throw you off guard. The next thing you know, you had a whole gang against you. That tactic doesn't work with me, since I already know what they are going to say before I compose my comments.

Quote: "I DO NOT share in their beliefs, nor in their doctrine." You brought them up, not me. If you feel you need their support, give them this permalink so we can start a discussion in this subject: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/3513475#a8836515

AB'ers: when people don't have an argument, they lose their temper and go insane.

Hi y'all. I've been in the penalty box for spamming. Apparently I am not supposed to talk either about members of my specific religion getting tortured in a specific Country or something. I mentioned it and posted a link in a thread with J Rizzo and then posted a question with a link comparing what happened to same religion in Hitler's NAZI Germany and then Stalin's Soviet Union. Was accused of spam and question removed. Someone suggested changing the question a little and reposting, so I did and gave a link to a current news article and got put in the penalty box for spam.

As far as I know, at least Nick Batchelor and Perryman have never been in a thread together? Pretty sure Perryman left Answerbag before Nick ever came. Here is an answer where I had posted links to several long discussions that I was in but my answers were flagged back then. "The Chief" used to restore my answers when my personal troll back then would flag them. https://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1777449 Old answers that are still available do not appear to have any comments under them any more.

Here are the answers currently available for Nick Batchelor: https://www.answerbag.com/profile/nick-batchelor I am a bit more busy these days than in the old AB but as I have time, I may try to participate a bit but my mind is more with my brothers under going severe persecution than on mental exercises that often prove futile. And then there is always the chance of being penalty boxed if I irritate someone. If so, y'all could try me on answermug but I haven't been on there much in a while and then I am still in the same boat time wise.

Texasescimo, quote: "As far as I know, at least Nick Batchelor and Perryman have never been in a thread together?" They have with me. In fact, I used to use a lot of colored text in my comments. In a long discussion of over 500 comments in the old AB, Nick Batchelor and others gave up, I then told you that we have the dance floor to ourselves, but you never replied back, while I challenged no_one special into a one on one discussion in another thread, he agreed and didn't go good for him by himself. I had a different username in the old AB. Now in the new AB, I figured I would keep it real.

I have never been in a thread with Nick and Perryman. If you have, either Nick joined for a while years before I ever saw him and then left and came back again later when I did see him or else Perryman came back years after he initially left. I know I have been in threads with hundreds of comments but know that is not fruitful and don't see that after 200 comments that another 100 is going to sway someone or after 500 that going to 501 is going to sway someone. I know that I have been alone in long threads with several trinitarians. Some a little emotional but sincere like Jesus is God and Randoley, some that often reverted to unrelevant attacks like Doc, Abbyguy, Gone, perhaps you remember her as Wingless or Wingless44, and a few other trinitarians of differing personalities. I remember you as the roller skate something and I remember you and timjon or tinjon used to be in threads together but I don't remember the exact subjects but thought you were both nice as far as differences of opinions go. He sometimes posted some questionable things of other stuff he was in to so I started avoiding him.

I do not think that some wiping the dust off of their feet or spending more time in the ministry necessarily means that they somehow saw some sort of light that the Bible says that God is triune so they turned tail and hid. That is not why I left answerbag nor why I have gotten away from answermug or fluther or some other site I joined for a while but don't remember exactly what it was as my account was wiped out by a moderator that was supposedly high up in the Anglican Church. (2 Timothy 2:23-25) Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. 24?For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged, 25?instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed. Perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, (Titus 3:9) But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile. (2 John 3) There will be with us undeserved kindness, mercy, and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, with truth and love. (2 John 9) Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son.

Question, who is being addressed in Psalms 45? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+45%3A1-5%2C16&version=AMP

Quote: "I have never been in a thread with Nick and Perryman." Sure you have. That was back in 2014. All comments from the old Answerbag got deleted. Adding funny images on my comments was also my way of ridiculing the opposers.

To the former Trinitarians of Randoley, Doc, Abbyguy and Gone: I am not them. My sock-puppet trio consisted of Crystal, Liz and Carl_07. Since the years went by, we got older, so I don't use sock-puppet accounts anymore. I grew out of that. I feel like it is better to keep it real.

To Psalm 45: there appears to be a contradiction in Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8. Both passages are understood how Jesus as Mediator owned God as His God, to whom being found in fashion as a man, He became obedient. (Philippians 2:5-11)

Perryman left answerbag way before 2014. Unless Nick commented on a thread that Perryman vacated many years before that, the only other way they were in a thread together is if Perryman came back while I was gone as I haven't talked to him on answerbag since way before that. I wasn't saying that I thought you were those other users that I mentioned. I do remember some of the ones you mentioned but I did not know that was you too.

You didn't really answer the question, at least not clearly. Do you agree that Psalms 45:6 was addressed to King Solomon? Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

To my recall, I was having a discussion with you on a question that asked about the name Jehovah. Then Nick Batchelor joined in as the comments made it past the 100th mark. Nightcrawler then left some comments, but didn't last long. Perryman left a few comments, followed by no_one special who also decided to join. After 3-6 months of arguing, Nick Batchelor found himself in a hole and said that he was done, you stopped leaving comments so no_one special was the only member left. Me and him left the thread to start a new discussion. I said I was a bit rusty to get into a new discussion. You did make a last comment and said you would pray for some oil. I saved a lot of our discussions. Unfortunately, all the comments were deleted when Answerbag closed down by the end of 2015.

Quote: "You didn't really answer the question, at least not clearly." I am certain you didn't like what I said. I can understand were you are coming from to defend your standpoint.

Quote: "Do you agree that Psalms 45:6 was addressed to King Solomon?" Is Solomon God?

I have never been in or seen a discussion where Perryman commented after Nick Batchelor. I missed Bruceytom when he left and Perryman when he left. They both were active on AB way before me. I would not have forgot if either of them came back while I was still here. It is possible that Nick commented on an old thread where Perryman had commented years earlier though. I have seen Nick leave when he saw a thread was going no where. I don't recall him relentlessly staying in a thread for months. Either someone is drawn or their not. (John 6:44) Does the Bible advise us to keep arguing even for one month? Doesn't the Bible advise us to take our leave? Proverbs 17:14; Luke 9:5; (2 Timothy 2:23) Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. The last I talked to Nightcrawler on here, he had turned against JW's so I avoided threads with him. If you said you were rusty and I said I would get some oil, I don't recall that at the moment but it is funny. lol. I actually do not recall the exact order of people coming in to threads or leaving threads. I know people on come and go, like myself. When a trinitarian leaves, I don't take it that they now know that I was right. I do know that two ex AB'ers told me that they no longer believe in the trinity due in part to conversations with me. One is still active on answermug. The other one was Strength who also had a puppet Just A Pineapple.

You are reading way toooooo much in to stuff. When I said: [Quote: "You didn't really answer the question, at least not clearly." I am certain you didn't like what I said. I can understand were you are coming from to defend your standpoint.]

My Question was [who is being addressed in Psalms 45?] Your answer was: [To Psalm 45: there appears to be a contradiction in Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8. Both passages are understood how Jesus as Mediator owned God as His God, to whom being found in fashion as a man, He became obedient. (Philippians 2:5-11)]

Did you notice that I asked who was being addresses, you answered with how you understood it, regardless of how the KJV translates it and who is being addressed. In regards to Psalms 45:6, this is all over the internet: "there appears to be a contradiction"

I really hate the format on answerbag. You said: [Quote: "Do you agree that Psalms 45:6 was addressed to King Solomon?" Is Solomon God?] My answer, No, Solomon is not God but Solomon is being addressed. That is why some translators translate that verse the other way and why many that prefer the KJV way have to defend it with your "there appears to be a contradiction". No contradiction when translated correctly. It's there forced translation to prove Jesus is God. Just can't find a manuscript that doesn't show it was initially addressed to an ancient earthly King, Solomon.

Quote: "I have never been in or seen a discussion where Perryman commented after Nick Batchelor." They have with me. I don't know why it seems like a big deal to say they weren't in a discussion together. I am letting you know the list in order from my experience. Perryman did not say much in the discussion we had. From the time I knew him, he was of short words. He only left a few comments and he was gone after that. Most of the comments were left by me, you, Nick Batchelor and no_one special. I even remember those users name in the exact way they spelled their username. I had a lot of discussions saved, until Answerbag closed down. Quote: "I have seen Nick leave when he saw a thread was going no where." That was in another discussion I had with you and him only. The other discussion that lasted 3-6 months brought in all the 5 members I mentioned above.

Since you are bringing up scriptures of arguing, I am letting you know about my experience on this site. I did not talk about you or the others. Wakko who is the questioner in this subject mentioned you and and the experience he has had with ya. I'm not a new Answerbagger. I have socialized with many users over the years. Some users have stayed, others are no longer active. I have also heard of answerMug. In my opinion, I prefer to use Answerbag than any other Q&A website.

Quote: "You are reading way toooooo much in to stuff." I'm just calling it how I see it according to Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8, since a Godhead appears in both passages.

Quote: "Did you notice that I asked who was being addresses," I know exactly what you are asking. We both know Solomon is not God. In the words of Psalm 45:6, "Your throne O God," it is a Messianic Psalm to prove: "Jesus as Mediator owned God as His God" by His nature in Philippians 2:5-11. How can there be a contradiction when Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father?

Without muddied commentary or exegesis, please answer the question, I will post it by itself in the next comment.

Who is being addressed in Psalms 45?

Godhead in Psalms 45:6? Jesus owned God as His God? What does that even mean? (Philippians 2:5-11) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God?s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave?s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend?of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground? 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (John 14:28) You heard that I said to you, ?I am going away and I am coming back to you.? If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

When did Adventist adopt the Catholic teaching of the trinity?

We can always discuss denominations in a relevant subject which speaks of them. To our respectful exchange, my answer to Psalm 45 is accordingly to a Messianic Psalm. A mystical King, His bride and His marriage are described. You can't tell it Solomon being described. cause It is easily proved that it's not him.

Quote: "Godhead in Psalms 45:6?" Go back to the Messianic message. Quote: "Jesus owned God as His God? What does that even mean?" Simple, both the Father and the Son call each other God by Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8.

To Philippians 2:5-11, your version is contradicted. The KJV is clear: "Who, being in the form of God," Everything you can think of what forms a God, how can Jesus not fit the description? I won't be surprised if you say Jesus said the Father is greater than He is. Then you will be taking Scripture out of context for basing your understanding in that verse.

"existing in God's form" "being in the form of God" I don't see the problem. God's form is in spirit. The form of God is spirit. I thought I already brought out that the Father is greater and Jesus, John 14:28? I don't want to take it out of context, how do you read? Psalms 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8 can be translated more than one way. The way the KJV translated it, Solomon is referred to as "O God". As brought out earlier about your quote: In regards to Psalms 45:6, this is all over the internet: "there appears to be a contradiction"

Quote: "God's form is in spirit. The form of God is spirit." Don't forget Jesus had a glorified body and was made "perfect." Think of the transfiguration. Matthew 17:1-8 "And after six days Jesus took with Him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became white as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with Him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah. 5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, This is my beloved Son, with whom I Am well pleased; listen to Him. 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, Rise, and have no fear. 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only."

Quote: " I thought I already brought out that the Father is greater and Jesus, John 14:28?" You didn't bring it up with me. Do you mind telling me in what ways is the Father greater? Quote: "The way the KJV translated it, Solomon is referred to as "O God"." Solomon is not God nor does Solomon share the same glory with the Father as Jesus does.

This forum is so confusing and hard to follow. Each time you comment you have to search for the answer you commented under. No bolding, underlining, paragraph separations, some punctuations don't work, etc etc. Father is greater and Jesus, John 14:28? I don't want to take it out of context, HOW DO YOU READ? I never said that Solomon is God or share the same glory with the Father. This is what I said: Psalms 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8 can be translated more than one way. The way the KJV translated it, Solomon is referred to as "O God". As brought out earlier about your quote: In regards to Psalms 45:6, this is all over the internet: "there appears to be a contradiction"

(John 14:28) You heard that I said to you, ?I am going away and I am coming back to you.? If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am. (John 20:17) Jesus said to her: ?Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ?I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.?? (1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 15:28) But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

The Father is not part of creation but notice what the scriptures say in regards to Jesus: (Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF ALL CREATION; (Revelation 3:14) To the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION BY GOD:

Quote: "This forum is so confusing and hard to follow." It is very simple to keep track of your comments. Save this subject on your files and you will not lose track of it. I don't suggest you save all your discussions, but the subjects you think are more important.

Quote: "Father is greater and Jesus, John 14:28? I don't want to take it out of context, HOW DO YOU READ?" What do you mean how do I read it? I'm asking you in what ways is the Father greater than the Son. You are supposed to defend John 14:28. The verse is quoted frequently by the Jehovah's Witness to prove the Father is greater. You haven't given me a rational response to see how John 14:28 supports your views.

Quote: "I never said that Solomon is God or share the same glory with the Father." If you accept Psalm 45 is referring to a human king of Isreal, you could not provide a name, cause there is NO name to fill in the prophecy other than God. If you notice Psalm 45:17, a God is being praised, not some human king of Israel.

Oh, don't believe everything you read on the internet. All we need is God's Word, along with Hebrew and Greek interlinear's to understand Scripture properly.

Quote: "If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am. (John 20:17)" it is no surprise after everything Jesus did on Earth, He sits at the right hand of the Father. When Jesus was a human being, haven't you heard that the Spirit is greater than the flesh??? John 6:63 "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." This is why Jesus gives the Heavenly Father all the credit. You can't compare a MORTAL to an IMMORTAL.

Quote: "(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF ALL CREATION;" Seriously? C'mon, you know better than to throw Colossians 1:15 at me. Don't just stop at verse 15. Keep reading so you don't take it out of context. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead. Colossians 1:18 "He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent."

Most preeminent OF ALL CREATION is still part of creation. Firstborn from the dead OF ALL CREATION is still part OF ALL CREATION

Not exactly, Colossians 1:18 is not saying the Father created the Son. Read the words carefully: "HE IS THE BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD" Preeminence simply means that Christ should be held in the highest esteem in each of our lives.

Ya can't really just skip Colossians 1:15 right? Read the words carefully: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF ALL CREATION

(Revelation 3:14) To the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION BY GOD

Taking Scripture out of context is basing your beliefs in one verse. You either accept Colossians chapter 1 in whole or you don't. The words couldn't get any clearer in Colossians 1:18. Jesus is the firstborn of the dead, not the firstborn to be created by God. How silly.

Going to Revelation 3:14, here you go again. Go back a few chapters: Revelation 1:5 "and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the [firstborn of the dead], and the ruler of kings on Earth. To Him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His blood"

Colossians 1:18 in no way eliminates or contradicts Col 1:15. Just because he is the firstborn OF ALL CREATION does not mean that he cannot be the firstborn from the dead. Just because he is our Savior does not mean he cannot be our King, right?

How does Rev 1:5 eliminate or contradict Rev 3:14?

Go back a few verses and you will notice the the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION BY GOD, has a God over Him. (Revelation 3:2) Become watchful, and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your works fully performed before my God. (Revelation 3:12) The one who conquers I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. (Revelation 3:14) To the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:

Quote: "Colossians 1:18 in no way eliminates or contradicts Col 1:15." Colossians 1:15 does not say the Father created the Son. That's why you have to read Colossians chapter 1 in CONTEXT to see what Jesus is the firstborn of what? Both passages in Colossians 1:18 and Revelation 1:5 are saying Jesus is the firstborn of the dead. Can you give me a passage were it says the Father created the Son??? Once again, you are taking Colossians 1:15 out of context. When Jesus rose from the dead, He was the firstborn from the dead. THAT IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. Altering Scripture on your behalf is not how the Bible is properly understood.

Quote: "Just because he is our Savior does not mean he cannot be our King, right?? How many saviors and kings are Christians saved by? Your Revelation 3:2 passage is contradicted. The correct words are: Revelation 3:2 " Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works [perfect before God]." KJV There is nothing there that contradicts Jesus is God.

Going to Revelation 3:12, when you hear the words of my God, there is also nothing wrong with Jesus calling God His Father. In simple words, in the temple of my Father, in the name of my Father, in the city of my Father and out of Heaven from my Father. If you can prove the Father isn't God, then you have an argument. Other than that, none of your passages disprove the Godhead.

(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF ALL CREATION;

[Col. 1:15,16, RS: He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth. In what sense is Jesus Christ the first-born of all creation? (1)Trinitarians say that first-born here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of firstborn, it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovahs family of sons. (2)Before Colossians 1:15, the expression the firstborn of occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies the firstborn is part of the group. The firstborn of Israel, is one of the sons of Israel; the firstborn of Pharaoh, is one of Pharaohs family; the firstborn of beast, are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof?]

Did Jehovah not send forth his son as savior (1John 4:14), and isn't God our savior through Jesus Christ, (Jude 25) the same as he was through the prophets before he sent his son? http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John4:14;jude25;&version=49;49;16;31;47; http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=judg3:9-15;judges10:1;1sam23:5;2kings13:5;neh9:27;&version=15;49;9;16;77; Older more reliable manuscripts say 'my God' in Rev 3:2. A little research may help you. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev+3%3A2&version=NASB;HCSB;AMP;NLT;ASV

If I can prove the Father is not God, I have an argument? Why would I try to contradict some 40 Bible writers and 66 books? What kind of logic is that? Punt? Of course, if God is a trinity, all of them forgot to mention it, in fact, they contradict it. (Colossians 2:8) Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;

Quote: "(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF ALL CREATION;" You have it all twisted. Jesus IS THE FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD. Since you don't understand what that means, it means Jesus IS THE FIRSTBORN OF THE RESURRECTION. Your Trinity information does not apply with me. We both know the Father is God. The Son calling God His Father does not contradict the Godhead. I made it clear that everyone who accepts the Trinity has their own way of explaining it (due to), their congregations. Catholics, Pentecostals and Baptists who are the leading Christian denominations do not agree with each other. I cannot teach the Trinity likewise. So your trinity information is useless.

Speaking of the word Savior, Jesus holds the title of the Savior. 1 Timothy 4:10 "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." The living God+the Savior=Jesus is God and is the Savior of the world.

Twisted? What the Bible actually says is twisted? (Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF ALL CREATION;

I am guessing that you did not look up the cited verses where Jesus was sent by God as savior for all mankind and others had been sent by God as savior for certain groups in the past? Did Jehovah not send forth his son as savior (1John 4:14), and isn't God our savior through Jesus Christ, (Jude 25) the same as he was through the prophets before he sent his son? http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John4:14;jude25;&version=49;49;16;31;47; http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=judg3:9-15;judges10:1;1sam23:5;2kings13:5;neh9:27;&version=15;49;9;16;77; Older more reliable manuscripts say 'my God' in Rev 3:2. A little research may help you. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev+3%3A2&version=NASB;HCSB;AMP;NLT;ASV

Ya have to reason on the scriptures. See if this helps: (1 John 4:14) In addition, we ourselves have seen and are bearing witness that the FATHER HAS SENT his Son as savior of the world. (John 3:17) For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be SAVED THROUGH HIM. (Acts 5:31) GOD EXALTED THIS ONE as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. (Jude 25) to the only God our Savior THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might, and authority for all past eternity and now and into all eternity. Amen.

(Judges 3:15) Then the Israelites called to Jehovah for help, so Jehovah RAISED UP FOR THEM A SAVIOR, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjaminite who was left-handed. In time the Israelites sent tribute through him to Eglon the king of Moab. (Judges 10:1) After Abimelech, Tola the son of Puah, the son of Dodo, a man of Issachar, rose up to save Israel. He lived in Shamir in the mountainous region of Ephraim. (2 Kings 13:5) So Jehovah PROVIDED ISRAEL WITH A SAVIOR to free them from Syrias grip, and the Israelites were able to dwell in their homes as before. (Nehemiah 9:27) For this you gave them into the hand of their adversaries, who kept causing them distress. But they would cry out to you in the time of their distress, and you would hear from the heavens; and because of your great mercy, you would GIVE THEM SAVIORS to rescue them out of the hand of their adversaries.

Jesus had an origin, and was the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION BY GOD. (Micah 5:2) And you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, The one too little to be among the thousands of Judah, From you will come out for me the one to be ruler in Israel, Whose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago. (Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; (Revelation 3:14) And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God, (Proverbs 8:22) Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. (Proverbs 8:30) then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, Jesus also said that "I live because of the Father", Jehovah does not live because of anyone else. (John 6:57) Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. (John 8:42) Jesus said to them: If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth. (John 16:28) I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Further, I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father. (John 13:3) he, knowing that the Father had given all things into [his] hands and that he came forth from God and was going to God, (John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. In line with the principle at 1Cor 15:27-28, it is evident that everything, would be with the exception of himself and God, as he obviously did not create himself or God. The Bible shows that God created Jesus and then through Jesus, he created everything else. 1Cor 15:27-28 For [God] subjected all things under his feet. But when he says that all things have been subjected, it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Quote: "Twisted? What the Bible actually says is twisted? (Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF ALL CREATION;" Colossians 1:15 does not say Jesus was created, but rather the FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD OR THE FIRSTBORN OF THE RESURRECTION. What version are you reading that says Jesus was created? If you look in the NLT, it is CLEARLY saying Jesus is the firstborn to rise from the dead: Colossians 1:18 "Christ is also the head of the church, which is his body. [He is the beginning, supreme over all who rise from the dead]. So he is first in everything."

Talk about twisted, look again to see who has it twisted. Going to the word Savior, your passages are talking about a DELIVERER. Judges 3:15 "But when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised them up [a deliverer], Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab." God sent deliverers to rescue His people. We are not saved by DELIVERERS, but by a SAVIOR of the WORLD.

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, Am the LORD; and beside Me there is no Saviour." To further stay accurate: 1 Timothy 4:10 "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

Once again, Jesus holds the title of the Savior of the world. Both passages indicate that Jesus is God. Besides the Father being the Savior in the Old Testament, no believer will deny that Jesus is the Savior of all men. *Facepalm*

Quote" [Quote: "Twisted? What the Bible actually says is twisted? (Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF ALL CREATION;" Colossians 1:15 does not say Jesus was created, but rather the FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD OR THE FIRSTBORN OF THE RESURRECTION.] You sure you are looking at Col 1:15?

Quote:[Talk about twisted, look again to see who has it twisted. Going to the word Savior, your passages are talking about a DELIVERER. Judges 3:15...] Quote: [Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, Am the LORD; and beside Me there is no Saviour."] Same Hebrew word. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?page=3&strongs=H3467&t=KJV#lexResults Judges 3:15 But when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised them up a deliverer, H3467 Ehud the son of Gera,... Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. H3467

You missed these as well: . (Judges 10:1) After Abimelech, Tola the son of Puah, the son of Dodo, a man of Issachar, rose up to save Israel. He lived in Shamir in the mountainous region of Ephraim. (2 Kings 13:5) So Jehovah PROVIDED ISRAEL WITH A SAVIOR to free them from Syrias grip, and the Israelites were able to dwell in their homes as before. (Nehemiah 9:27) For this you gave them into the hand of their adversaries, who kept causing them distress. But they would cry out to you in the time of their distress, and you would hear from the heavens; and because of your great mercy, you would GIVE THEM SAVIORS to rescue them out of the hand of their adversaries.

Quote: [Besides the Father being the Savior in the Old Testament, no believer will deny that Jesus is the Savior of all men. *Facepalm*] No one denies that Jesus is our Savior. Jesus is the means by which God saves us. (John 3:17) For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. (2 Corinthians 5:18, 19) But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19?namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not counting their offenses against them, and he entrusted to us the message of the reconciliation. (1 John 4:14) In addition, we ourselves have seen and are bearing witness that the Father has sent his Son as savior of the world. (Romans 5:10) For if when we were enemies we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more we will be saved by his life, now that we have become reconciled. (Acts 5:31) God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. (Jude 25) to the only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might, and authority for all past eternity and now and into all eternity. Amen. (John 3:16) For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. (Romans 6:23) For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord. Luke 2:25-30) And, look! there was a man in Jerusalem named Sim?eon, and this man was righteous and reverent, waiting for Israels consolation, and holy spirit was upon him. 26?Furthermore, it had been divinely revealed to him by the holy spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Christ of Jehovah. 27?Under the power of the spirit he now came into the temple; and as the parents brought the young child Jesus in to do for it according to the customary practice of the law, 28?he himself received it into his arms and blessed God and said: 29?Now, Sovereign Lord, you are letting your slave go free in peace according to your declaration; 30?because my eyes have seen your means of saving

Quote: "You sure you are looking at Col 1:15?" Let's quote it again, but with context: Colossians 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the [firstborn] of every creature:" Colossians 1:18 "And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the [firstborn] from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence." If Colossians 1:18 was not part of the Bible, you would have an argument. But as you see, if you don't understand what firstborn from the dead means, it is clearly telling you Jesus is the firstborn of the resurrection.

In Judges 3:15, you can't possibly believe that mankind is the Savior of mankind. It takes a sinless Savior to save mankind. Quote: "Jesus is the means by which God saves us. (John 3:17) For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him." Think again and go back to the passage of Timothy: 1 Timothy 4:10 "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." Luke 2:11 "Today in the City of David a Savior has been born to you. He is Christ the Lord!" This deserves another *Facepalm*, since the Bible does not teach mankind is saved by "numerous" saviors. lol

(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OF ALL CREATION;" [According to the customary meaning of firstborn, it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovahs family of sons. (2)Before Colossians 1:15, the expression the firstborn of occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies the firstborn is part of the group. The firstborn of Israel, is one of the sons of Israel; the firstborn of Pharaoh, is one of Pharaohs family; the firstborn of beast, are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof?] (Exodus 11:5) and every firstborn in the land of Egypt will die, from the firstborn of Pharʹaoh who is sitting on his throne to the firstborn of the slave girl who is working at the hand mill, and every firstborn of the livestock. (Leviticus 27:26) ??However, no one should sanctify the firstborn of the animals, since it is born as the firstborn for Jehovah. Whether bull or sheep, it already belongs to Jehovah. (Numbers 3:12) ?As for me, look! I take the Levites from among the Israelites in place of all the firstborn of the Israelites, and the Levites will become mine.

An honest person would not try to exclude verse 15 from the Bible. Like it or not, it is there. Jesus is the firstborn OF ALL CREATION. Part OF ALL CREATION, not second born OF ALL CREATION not last born OF ALL CREATION but part OF ALL CREATION, firstborn. No one is denying that Jesus is everything verse 18 says but you are denying what 15 say and trying to replace it with verse 18 (Colossians 1:18) and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things;

I gave you several examples of how God saved people through others and lastly saved all mankind through Christ our Lord. (Acts 13:23) According to his promise, from the offspring of this man, God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus. (John 4:42) and they said to the woman: ?We no longer believe just because of what you said; for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the savior of the world.? (1 John 4:14) In addition, we ourselves have seen and are bearing witness that the Father has sent his Son as savior of the world.

Quote: [In Judges 3:15, you can't possibly believe that mankind is the Savior of mankind. It takes a sinless Savior to save mankind.] Implying I said something I did not again. Judges just shows that although God is the source of our salvation, he has used others referred to as savior for certain situations. What does this say: (1 Corinthians 15:21, 22) For SINCE DEATH CAME THROUGH A MAN, RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD ALSO COMES THROUGH A MAN. 22?For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. (Romans 5:12-14) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13?For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14?Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come. (Romans 5:17) For if by the trespass of the one man death ruled as king through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one person, Jesus Christ!

Quote: "[According to the customary meaning of firstborn, it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovahs family of sons." Not one passage can you give that says the Father created the Son. On the contrary, you are taking Colossians 1:15 out of context. I said it before and I will say it again, if Colossians 1:18 did not say Jesus is the firstborn of the dead, then you can prove the Father created the Son. We cannot choose a single verse to make a doctrine. We must accept the Bible as whole. The fact of the matter is, Colossians chapter 1 does not stop at verse 15.

Exodus 11:5, Leviticus 27:26 and Numbers 3:12 only prove how mankind is able to produce a firstborn. The term firstborn has two meanings. The first is literal as you indicated with your passages referring to the fact that a son is the first son to be born of his father. The second meaning refers to the firstborn of the dead, and is that all men and women before they were born on this Earth, existed as spirits. Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." When we read it in context, if God foreknows future events as certain, then they must be certain to say Jesus is the firstborn of the resurrection for a reason.

Quote: "I gave you several examples of how God saved people through others and lastly saved all mankind through Christ our Lord." By your interpretation, we are NOT SAVED BY SINNERS. It takes a SINLESS Savior to be the Savior of the world. Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, Am the LORD; and beside me there is no Saviour." You can research all the "saviors" you want, but according to Scripture, every deliverer you can think of did not become the Savior of the world. Jesus hold the title of the Savior of mankind by His sinless character. The description of Jesus fits in PERFECTLY with the Father, as Isaiah 42:11 states there is no other Savior but God. It is how we know that a SINLESS Savior was born unto us in Luke 2:11. The "manifestation" is clear. Quote: "(1 Corinthians 15:21, 22) For SINCE DEATH CAME THROUGH A MAN, RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD ALSO COMES THROUGH A MAN. 22?" Excellent biblical passage to further prove Jesus is the firstborn of the resurrection. Read it in any version you like: 1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." KJV 1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." ESV 1 Corinthians 15:22 "Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life." NLT Knowing Jesus is the firstborn of the dead, the logical statement of being made alive is Jesus is the firstborn of the dead.

Interesting link in regards to modern translations based on older manuscripts agree with the NWT on some verses. https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/niv_and_%20nasb_are_same_bibles_as_nwt.htm Interesting chart: http://bible.ovu.edu/terry/interpretation/translat.htm English Bible Translations (rated on a scale of 1 to 10 as to literalness) This site has translations rated from "word for word" to "thought for thought" or paraphrased. http://www.apbrown2.net/web/TranslationComparisonChart.htm Translation Comparison Charts

Thanks for sharing! The NIV and other newer versions have a lot of contradictions and are very much of paraphrase. It is impossible to take newer versions and translate from its English back into the original languages.

The NIV is one of the looser translations of the newer versions based on the older manuscripts. Not all are that loose. How old was Ahaziah when be began to reign, 22 or 42? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Kings+8%3A26%3B2+Chronicles+22%3A2&version=KJV;HCSB;NKJV;NLT;AMP 2 Chronicles 22:2 (KJV) Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri. 2 Kings 8:26 (KJV) Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

Not sure why you said: It is impossible to take newer versions and translate from its English back into the original languages. No one is doing that. Most of the newer versions are based on older, more reliable manuscripts rather than just the textus receptus like the KJV was.

Many have asked why the KJV is more preferable in comparison to the NIV, NJB, NASB, etc. Certainly the main reason is that the KJV has been tried and proven. When the KJV is compared to newer versions, the KJV was translated into the English of the day 1600's and the NIV and others into modern English.

Tried and proven? In relation to "newer versions have a lot of contradictions", did you miss this question: How old was Ahaziah when be began to reign, 22 or 42? No one I know uses the 1611 KJV. I've never seen anyone quote from the 1611 KJV other than myself, on answerbag, answermug, fluther or other sites I had joined. The 1611 KJV had the apocrypha and many of the words are harder to understand than William Tyndale's, hence many revisions to the KJV. When I first started studying the Bible, I thought I was using the 1611 KJV but later found out it was the 1769 version. People that use the KJV do so because of tradition, "Mom and Dad did, so am I." Not because of research.

That's right, the KJV is the authorized version. The translation was done by 47 scholars, all of whom were members of the Church of England. There are publishers that have been changing and altering the KJV.

Let's go to Matthew 19:17 in various versions...

Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto Him, Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." KJV Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments." NIV Matthew 19:17 "And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." NASB

If you look at the difference, all men with the exception of Jesus have fallen short of the glory of God. That is how we know Jesus is called good.

You missed it again: How old was Ahaziah when be began to reign, 22 or 42?

This answer was in relation to versions of the Bible but okay. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus made a distinction between Himself and God. Jesus is good but not to the same extent that God is good and Jesus humbly refused Good as a title. I have never seen you quote from the 1611 KJV much less the apocrypha, that I remember anyway.

Let's not jump to the subject of Ahaziah. The main focus is to know how good is Jesus. Quote: "Jesus is good but not to the same extent that God is good" Actually, Jesus shares the same glory with the Father. (John 5:19) Doesn't it take a God to do likewise as the Father?

You really are a professional debater. Lol You might ought to re-read this thread under your answer. It was about different translations like the KJV, NIV and others and how the others contradict themselves. You did not present any example of contradiction so I gave you Ahaziah. You skipped over it giving authority to 47 men that had limited faulty manuscripts to go by with contradictions like Ahaziah being 22 or 42 and then you got even further away from Ahaziah with: "Let's go to Matthew 19:17 in various versions." I went there but you still ignore the only contradiction that I brought up so far from the textus receptus.

There is no need to sling mud. I am treating you fair. Quote: "You did not present any example of contradiction so I gave you Ahaziah." I clearly brought up Matthew 19:17. That's just one verse of many were Jesus does not take credit for being good. This is not about an extent. No religious character in the Bible does exactly what the Father does.

Sorry, wasn't trying to sling mud, just funnin ya a bit as you said you are a professional debater. What verse in what translation contradicts Matthew 19:17? Did you not re-read the thread and see that Ahaziah was mentioned before Matthew 19:17 which I already responded to?

Never saw a trinitarian bring up John 5:19 before? Isn't that another instance where Jesus defended Himself against the charge of making Himself equal to God? (John 5:17-20) But he answered them: My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working. 18 On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God. 19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that YOU may marvel. If you notice, it is the Jews in verse 18 that said Jesus was making himself equal to God. In verses 19-20,26,30, and 36, Jesus defends himself against that charge. (John 5:26) For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. (John 5:30-36) I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me. 31 If I alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that bears witness about me, and I know that the witness which he bears about me is true. 33 YOU have dispatched men to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 However, I do not accept the witness from man, but I say these things that YOU may be saved. 35 That man was a burning and shining lamp, and YOU for a short time were willing to rejoice greatly in his light. 36 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, the works themselves that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father dispatched me.

What you can do is stick to the discussion and not worry about what others do. Quote: "What verse in what translation contradicts Matthew 19:17?" I just added the different versions that contradict the nature of Jesus. I will post them again: Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto Him, Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." KJV Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments." NIV Matthew 19:17 "And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." NASB

With the various versions, Jesus is called good for a reason. You have not presented any scriptures why Jesus is called good to an extent.

Also, you can't disprove why Jesus does exactly what the Father does. Quote: "Never saw a trinitarian bring up John 5:19 before?" I don't call myself a Trinitarian. Besides, all Trinitarians have their way of using Scripture to support their claims. If you look at John 5:19, once again you are unable to give me a religious character in the Bible that does likewise as the Father. Definition of likewise 1 : in like manner : SIMILARLY go and do likewise 2 : in addition a painter who is likewise a sculptor 3 : similarly so with me answered "likewise" to "Pleased to meet you" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/likewise

Quote: [What you can do is stick to the discussion and not worry about what others do] WOW, SORRY. Is that because I said "Never saw a trinitarian bring up John 5:19 before?"

Quote: [all Trinitarians have their way of using Scripture to support their claims] AGAIN because I said: Never saw a trinitarian bring up John 5:19 before?" Isn't that you now worrying about what others do?

Here is my response to Matthew 19:17 again: [ In Matthew 19:17, Jesus made a distinction between Himself and God. Jesus is good but not to the same extent that God is good and Jesus humbly refused Good as a title.] Since some masters can be referred to as good and gentle, are they God? (Matthew 19:17) He said to him: ?Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.? (Mark 10:18) Jesus said to him: ?Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God. 1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

After you comment, why do you have to search the page for where you just commented? Why does this site keep changing some punctuation in to questions marks? Why can you not make paragraph indentations? Why can't you bold, highlight, color, underline etc?

I am guessing you missed this: You might ought to re-read this thread under your answer. It was about different translations like the KJV, NIV and others and how the others contradict themselves. You did not present any example of contradiction so I gave you Ahaziah. You skipped over it giving authority to 47 men that had limited faulty manuscripts to go by with contradictions like Ahaziah being 22 or 42 and then you got even further away from Ahaziah with: "Let's go to Matthew 19:17 in various versions." I went there but you still ignore the only contradiction that I brought up so far from the textus receptus.

Third comment below your answer: HOW OLD WAS AHAZIAH WHEN HE BEGAN TO REIGN, 22 or 42? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Kings+8%3A26%3B2+Chronicles+22%3A2&version=KJV;HCSB;NKJV;NLT;AMP 2 Chronicles 22:2 (KJV) FORTY AND TWO years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri. 2 Kings 8:26 (KJV) TWO AND TWENTY years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

WHY DOES THE KING JAMES SAY THAT AHAZIAH WAS 22 IN 2 KINGS 8:26 AND 42 IN 2 CHRONICLES 22:2

No worries, the Trinity is mainly taught in different ways by many Christian denominations. This is how you come across Trinitarians from their congregations. I don't believe in people's opinions. I believe in the reasoning of the scriptures. As long as we have a Divine source to rely on, I don't see why I should worry about how others are teaching it. To your remarks about adding bold, highlight, color, underline and etc: the new Answerbag does not support it. Or else, I would be filling up these threads with facepalm images.

Quote: "WHY DOES THE KING JAMES SAY THAT AHAZIAH WAS 22 IN 2 KINGS 8:26 AND 42 IN 2 CHRONICLES 22:2" We can always get to Ahaziah in another subject. It seems like you get disturbed when you hear that Jesus is God. Quote: "Jesus made a distinction between Himself and God. Jesus is good but not to the same extent that God is good and Jesus humbly refused Good as a title.]" Actually, Jesus does hold the title of good. John 10:14 "I Am the good shepherd, and know My sheep, and am known of Mine." Quote: "Since some masters can be referred to as good and gentle, are they God?" ALL men have fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus never fell from the glory of God. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Get real. Look at your answer that all of this is under. The answer was in relation to your accusations against other translations then you followed up with a comment about other translations contradict themselves. Then I gave a comment showing one of several contradictions in the KJV. Jesus being God was your detour from the subject besides that, I thought your stance wasn't that Jesus is God but that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost is God. If Jesus is God by Himself, where does that leave the other two? Wouldn't it more feasible to say that Jesus is 1/3 of God?

WHY DOES THE KING JAMES SAY THAT AHAZIAH WAS 22 IN 2 KINGS 8:26 AND 42 IN 2 CHRONICLES 22:2

Quote: "Get real. Look at your answer that all of this is under." How hostile of you for telling me to get real when I clearly said that we can always get to Ahaziah in a different subject. I know what you're thinking, is it 22 or 42, but I don't see the need to discuss Ahaziah's age. I understand the new editorial versions say 22 on both passages, although you couldn't tell me the newer versions are the inspired books of God. I see you want to change our talk, cause you don't do well with discussing the Jesus is God term. Quote: "Jesus being God was your detour from the subject besides that," Think again. My original answer is based on the Godhead: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/3513475#a8836515 In my second answer which is in this thread, it is based on the accuracy of the KJV. The new editorial bible's are only altered. Why do you think a number should discredit the KJV?

Quote: " If Jesus is God by Himself, where does that leave the other two?" Use the logic of water, ice and steam. The Heavenly Father, the Son on Earth and the resurrection use the same logic.

I thought we were discussing the subject you brought up in this answer which is in relation to "other versions" and "contradictions" within translations as brought up by you in your first subsequent comment? We are discussing the trinity and rather or not Jesus is the same God he was with in other threads. At certain temperatures, all water turns to ice and at on the other end it all turns to steam. Is there a certain temperature where there are three God's and another where there is only one? Or is there a certain temperature where the three persons of the trinity are three persons and another where the three persons are only one? If the Father is not the only true God, then why did Jesus say so? (John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their coming to know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. Take care.

In this thread, it is aimed at contradictions in regards to the newer versions. If you want to say the KJV contradicts Ahaziah's age of 22 and 42, what I can tell you is that it was a typist error. Quote: "Is there a certain temperature where there are three God's and another where there is only one?" Nobody can understand the mysteries of God. We are not certain of His limits. Job 11:7 "Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty?" What I can assure is: the same logic of water, ice and steam is used to prove the Godhead, along with scriptures that prove the Holy Spirit is also God. Read Acts chapter 5 to see who Ananias was actually lying to. Peter made it clear, Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit when in the end of his lecture, it was God Ananias had lied to. Take note in John 17:3: Jesus is in fact called the true God. 1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and Eternal Life."

Quote: [Take note in John 17:3: Jesus is in fact called the true God.] In what translation does John 17:3 call Jesus the true God? (John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their coming to know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. Take care.

[Even A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, published by Romes Pontifical Biblical Institute, states: [Houtos]: as a climax to [verses] 18-20 the reference is almost certainly to God the real, the true, [in] opposition to] paganism (v.21). Often houtos, generally translated this or this one, DOES NOT REFER TO THE IMMEDIATEDLY PRECEDING SUBJECT OF A PHRASE. Other scriptures illustrate the point. At 2 John 7] (1 John 5:20) But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us insight so that we may gain the knowledge of the one who is true. And we are in union with the one who is true, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting. (1 John 2:22) Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. More quotes from scholars and examples here: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2004768?q=%E2%80%9Cthe+True+God+and+Life+Everlasting%E2%80%9D&p=par

Quote: [In this thread, it is aimed at contradictions in regards to the newer versions. If you want to say the KJV contradicts Ahaziah's age of 22 and 42, what I can tell you is that it was a typist error.] Yes, copyist error in the textus receptus from which the KJV came from. Older manuscripts do not contain that error nor the error of the comma Johanneum, 1 John 5:7.

Quote: "In what translation does John 17:3 call Jesus the true God?" It's in God's Word, and I will prove it again. Jesus being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God, now that Jesus being found in fashion as a man, He became obedient. (Philippians 2:5-11) We're back in step 1 from my early comments.

Quote: " [Houtos]: as a climax to [verses] 18-20 the reference is almost certainly to God the real, the true, [in] opposition to] paganism (v.21)." Your information is twisted. Jesus is identified as the true God in 1 John 5:20, since Jesus holds the title of the truth. The definition of the word truth: "the quality or state of being true."

Quote: "Yes, copyist error in the textus receptus from which the KJV came from." As you see, you can't discredit the KJV over a typographical error. Quote: "Older manuscripts do not contain that error nor the error of the comma Johanneum, 1 John 5:7." In case you haven't heard, the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit who form the Trinity all share the title of the truth. 3 truths in 1 is what Scripture teaches.

{Quote: "In what translation does John 17:3 call Jesus the true God?" It's in God's Word, and I will prove it again. } Are you changing what you said? Quote: [Take note in John 17:3: Jesus is in fact called the true God.]

Why do you claim that the second sentence in 1 John 5:20 is referring to Jesus? Do you also think that the second sentence 1 John 2:22 is referring to Jesus?

Philippians 2:5-11 does not contradict John 14:28 and the rest of the Bible. (1 Corinthians 3:23) in turn you belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God. (1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God. (Philippians 2:5-11) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God?s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave?s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend?of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground? 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

So you are okay with the spurious comma Johanneum, 1 John 5:7? You do not find your explanations from men in trying to explain away what the Bible says a bit odd? (Colossians 2:8) Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;

You do not find it odd that you make claims of contradiction in modern translations which are based on older manuscripts while having to defend contradictions in the KJV? Every Bible has the truth but some like the KJV have some muddied stuff due to biased translators and/or faulty late manuscripts. The NIV, while removing many spurious verses of the KJV, it has it's on problems as twisting other verses to try and support the trinity.

All versions that I have looked at say that the Father is the only true God, that for us Christians there is one God, the Father, that the head of Christ is God, that the Father is greater than Jesus, that Jesus has a God over him that he worships and prays to, that Jesus was sent by God, that we need faith in both, God and Jesus, etc etc etc.

Interesting that the trinitarian verses are either spurious, a typo, have more than one possible rendering, or are open to understanding when taking out of context and ignoring relevant verses. John 10:30 for example, when reading through verse 38, Jesus defends Himself against the understanding of the Pharisees and modern day trinitarians. (John 17:11, 20-23)

Take another proven typo for instance. The older more reliable manuscripts say "He" but trinitarians hold on to "God" at 1 Tim 3:16. Using typo's and forced interpretations as proof to undo what some 40 Bible writers said in relation to the Father, whose name is Jehovah, being the one true God. (1 Timothy 3:16) Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.

Quote: "Are you changing what you said? Are you saying God's Word is not reliable for answers??? 1 John 5:20 is saying Jesus is the true God, simply because He is the truth. Quote: "Philippians 2:5-11 does not contradict John 14:28 and the rest of the Bible. (1 Corinthians 3:23) in turn you belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God." And you have not told me IN WHAT WAYS is the Father greater other than He is the head to define the Godhead of the Trinity. To Philippians 2:5-11, being in the form of God like no one else is already proving Jesus is part of the Godhead. You have to keep in mind that Jesus lost all His riches to become a servant. You have to ask yourself in what ways is the Father greater. Philippians 2:5-11 has the answer in the authorized version: Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 [Who, being in the form of God], thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made Himself of no reputation, and [took upon Him the form of a servant], and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in Heaven, and things in Earth, and things under the Earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." As you see, you can't compare the Heavenly Father to a mortal. "Let that mind be in you" are the key words.. Once again, it is no surprise why Jesus said the Spirit is greater than the flesh.

Quote: "So you are okay with the spurious comma Johanneum, 1 John 5:7? You do not find your explanations from men in trying to explain away what the Bible says a bit odd?" The Johannine Comma does not appear in the majority of Greek manuscripts, but one should keep in mind that there are not a lot of Greek manuscripts that contain 1 John to begin with, so there's nothing odd with reasoning with the scriptures. You cannot disprove the 3 truths in 1. Quote: "Interesting that the trinitarian verses are either spurious, a typo," This is why the bible should be quoted in context. Biblical theology is a discipline of theology which emphasizes the progressive nature of biblical revelation. Quote: "The older more reliable manuscripts say "He" but trinitarians hold on to "God" at 1 Tim 3:16." It is certain God was manifested in the flesh. One for the fact, "Jesus was in the form of God," while He the same glory with the Father. You can't find a passage which says angels or humanity are in the form of God, as well as, angels and humanity share the same glory with the Father. John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

You actually think that you are making sense? You have mingled and muddied everything so I have to unscramble that conglomeration of words and philosophy to even know where to start.

"Same glory with the Father" proves trinity? Read the previous verses where Jesus says the Father is the only true God. (John 17:1-5) 1 ..FATHER...3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

(John 17:21, 22) so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I HAVE GIVEN THEM THE GLORYTHAT YOU HAVE GIVEN ME, in order that they may be one just as we are one. (John 1:14) So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. (John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father?s side is the one who has explained Him. (2 Peter 1:17) For he received from God the Father honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him by the magnificent glory: ?This is my Son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.?

Notice that the Sinaiticus from the 4th century has 1 John but not the spurious comma often used as a proof text. http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?=Submit%20Query&book=55&chapter=5&lid=en&side=r&verse=7&zoomSlider=0 7 For they that testify are three, 8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John5:7-8;&version=NIV;HCSB;NKJV;NLT;NASB; /./ http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=DBY&b=1Jo&c=5&v=7&x=27&y=10#vrsn/7 /././ The Alexandrian manuscript, from the 5th century, does not have it: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=5&v=7&t=NASB#conc/7

Isaac Newton new that that 1John 5:7 and 1Tim 3:16 had been corrupted. http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/view/texts/normalized/THEM00261 Is this a 7th Day Adventist site? https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/bible-nt-texts/1-john-57

Angels are also spirits which is the form God is in. No one has ever seen God. Jesus was in the flesh and men have seen him. (John 4:24) God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.? (Psalm 104:4) He makes his angels spirits, His ministers a consuming fire. (John 1:14) So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. (John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father?s side is the one who has explained Him.

We already discussed Phil 2:6 as well as other supposed proof text that are only usable in certain translations. See if this helps: [ Equal With God - AT PHILIPPIANS 2:6 the Catholic Douay Version (Dy) of 1609 says of Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. The King James Version (KJ) of 1611 reads much the same. A number of such versions are still used by some to support the idea that Jesus was equal to God. But note how other translations render this verse: 1869: who, being in the form of God, did not regard it as a thing to be grasped at to be on an equality with God. The New Testament, by G.R.Noyes. 1965: He truly of divine nature! never self-confidently made himself equal to God. Das Neue Testament, revised edition, by Friedrich Pfafflin . 1968: who, although being in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God a thing to greedily make his own. La Bibbia Concordata. 1976: He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force he should try to become equal with God. Todays English Version. 1984: ?who, although he was existing in Gods form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.? New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. 1985: ?Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped.? The New Jerusalem Bible. Some claim, however, that even these more accurate renderings imply that (1)?Jesus already had equality but did not want to hold on to it or that (2)?he did not need to grasp at equality because he already had it. In this regard, Ralph Martin, in The Epistle of Paul to the Philippians, says of the original Greek: ?It is questionable, however, whether the sense of the verb can glide from its real meaning of ?to seize?, ?to snatch violently? to that of ?to hold fast.?? The Expositor?s Greek Testament also says: ?We cannot find any passage where ?????? [har?pa?zo] or any of its derivatives has the sense of holding in possession, retaining. It seems invariably to mean seize, snatch violently. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense grasp at into one which is totally different, hold fast.?]

You will have to read through all of the punctuation that answerbag converted in to question marks. [From the foregoing it is apparent that the translators of versions such as the Douay and the King James are bending the rules to support Trinitarian ends. Far from saying that Jesus thought it was appropriate to be equal to God, the Greek of Philippians 2:6, when read objectively, shows just the opposite, that Jesus did not think it was appropriate. The context of the surrounding verses (3-5, 7,8, Dy) makes it clear how verse 6 is to be understood. The Philippians were urged: In humility, let each esteem others better than themselves. Then Paul uses Christ as the outstanding example of this attitude: Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. What mind To think it not robbery to be equal with God No, that would be just the opposite of the point being made! Rather, Jesus, who esteemed God as better than himself, would never grasp for equality with God, but instead he humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death. Surely, that cannot be talking about any part of Almighty God. It was talking about Jesus Christ, who perfectly illustrated Pauls point here namely the importance of humility and obedience to ones Superior and Creator, Jehovah God.]

Quote: "You actually think that you are making sense? I am making perfect sense. It is a FACT that Jesus is called Good because He is God. All men fell from the glory of God, but not Jesus. You could not give me one passage which shows Jesus fell from the glory of God. Not only that, you can't prove angels or mankind are in the form of God. Angels do not do LIKEWISE as God. The Father does not share His glory with any other, except Jesus. Isaiah 42:8 "I Am the LORD: that is My name: and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images." Jesus shares the same glory with the Father: John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." Since you missed the definition of likewise, I will add it again: likewise meaning: "1. in the same way: 2. in the same way or manner; similarly:"

Quote: "Isaac Newton new that that 1John 5:7 and 1Tim 3:16 had been corrupted." Textual corruption, especially of the scriptures involve how the Bible was transmitted. There were no printing presses or word processor programs that neatly regenerated the biblical text when needed. The comma is not necessarily a corruption, and I can prove it furthermore. John taught Trinitarian doctrine in his writings, Go back to 1 John chapter 1. 1 John 1:2 "(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that Eternal Life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) When we speak of the He in 1 Timothy 3:16, great is the mystery of the godliness. the Father by the first epistle of John states the Father/God was MANIFESTED unto us. I would add a facepalm image in this paragraph, but all we have are bold letters on this site to make a verbal impact. Also, 3 truths in 1 is not a corrupted biblical statement. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit SHARE THE TITLE OF THE TRUTH.

Psalm 25:5 "Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior," John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I Am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 16:13 "When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come."

Quote: "It was talking about Jesus Christ, who perfectly illustrated Pauls point here namely the importance of humility and obedience to ones Superior and Creator, Jehovah God.]" Not quite, all things were created by Jesus. Colossians 1:16 "For by Him were all things created, that are in Heaven, and that are in Earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:"

This forum is difficult with the modern changes. Answermug is way easier other than the fact is have been overrun with those hostile to the Bible itself. You didn't address some of my very relevant post but this forum does make it hard. For now, I will try to address glory. No one ever said that Jesus fell from glory. Please answer these questions CLEARLY: Did the ones that Jesus shared the glory that God gave Jesus fall from glory? Does God seek glory for Himself? Does Jesus seek for Himself? Does Jesus speak of His own originality? Does God speak of His own originality? DOES JESUS SHARE THE GLORY THAT GOD GAVE HIM?

(Isaiah 42:8) I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images. (John 5:41) I DO NOT ACCEPT GLORY FROM MEN (John 8:50) But I am not seeking glory for myself; there is One who is seeking and judging. (John 7:17, 18) If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality. 18 Whoever speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but whoever seeks the glory of the one who sent him, this one is true and there is no unrighteousness in him. (John 17:21, 22) so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I HAVE GIVEN THEM THE GLORY THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN ME, in order that they may be one just as we are one. (Philippians 2:11) and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

You keep bringing up John 5:19. The fact that Jesus gives all credit to God should tell you something. Would God say he cannot do anything of His own initiative? (John 5:19) Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. (John 5:30) I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (John 7:16) Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me. (John 7:28) Then as he was teaching in the temple, Jesus called out: You know me and you know where I am from. And I have not come of my own initiative, but the One who sent me is real, and you do not know him. (John 8:28) Jesus then said: After you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things. (John 12:49) For I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak. (John 14:10) Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works. Is Jesus the same person as the children spoken of in Hebrews 2? Likewise? Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Quote: [ the Father by the first epistle of John states the Father/God was MANIFESTED unto us. I would add a facepalm image in this paragraph, but all we have are BOLD LETTERS on this site to make a verbal impact] What BOLD LETTERS are you referring to? Also, what context in MANIFESTED are you referring to? 1 John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=manifested&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

What does Jesus mean when He called the Father the only true God? John 17:3 Do you think that he was speaking in parables or illustrations rather than speaking plainly? What do you mean that JOHN TAUGHT TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE IN HIS WRITINGS? Did John say something like that these have been written down so that you may believe that Christ is God, the third person of the trinity?

Don't think you touched on the fact that no one has ever seen God? Angels are also spirits which is the form God is in. No one has ever seen God. Jesus was in the flesh and men have seen him. (John 4:24) God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.? (Psalm 104:4) He makes his angels spirits, His ministers a consuming fire. (John 1:14) So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. (John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Fathers side is the one who has explained Him. (Philippians 2:6) who, although he was existing in Gods form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. (John 5:37) And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form, (Deuteronomy 4:12) And Jehovah began to speak to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but you saw no form there was only a voice.

What do you think 'form' means? https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3444&t=KJV the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; external appearance Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form G3444 of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Not sure what you accept as proof of the spurious text 1 John 5:7 since you do not accept the older more reliable manuscripts? I will post some of this again so you can actually research it and hopefully answer if that one site is 7th day adventist? Isaac Newton new that that 1John 5:7 and 1Tim 3:16 had been corrupted. http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/view/texts/normalized/THEM00261 Is this a 7th Day Adventist site? https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/bible-nt-texts/1-john-57 Notice that the Sinaiticus from the 4th century has 1 John but not the spurious comma often used as a proof text. http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?=Submit%20Query&book=55&chapter=5&lid=en&side=r&verse=7&zoomSlider=0 7 For they that testify are three, 8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John5:7-8;&version=NIV;HCSB;NKJV;NLT;NASB; /./ http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=DBY&b=1Jo&c=5&v=7&x=27&y=10#vrsn/7 /././ The Alexandrian manuscript, from the 5th century, does not have it: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=5&v=7&t=NASB#conc/7

Quote: "This forum is difficult with the modern changes. Answermug is way easier other than the fact is have been overrun with those hostile to the Bible itself." Answerbag is not difficult at all. Adding bold letters is all we've got to use to make an impact in our sentences. If the old features were still available, adding spaces between paragraphs is part of my writing specialty, besides ridiculing the contrary with images. Quote: "Did the ones that Jesus shared the glory that God gave Jesus fall from glory? Does God seek glory for Himself? Does Jesus seek for Himself?" I have answered your questions. The facts are found in the scriptures. You can't disprove the fact that Jesus NEVER fell from the glory of God. All the glory the Son gets is for the Father. Go back to step 1 once more in Philippians chapter 2: Philippians 2:11 "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." In the strictest sense, ALL the glory Jesus receives is for the Father. Mankind as sinners are unable to glorify the Father.

Why would Jesus seek the glory for Himself? when He said that He can only do what He sees the father doing in John 5:19? Another statement which proves Jesus is God. Angels nor mankind cannot do LIKEWISE as the Father. It takes a God to do what a God does. This is were the logic of water, ice and steam come in effect to speak of the Trinity.

Quote: "(John 17:21, 22) so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me." If you read the scriptures properly, the word "union" is an altered word. In the Body of Christ, Christians form one body. 1 Corinthians 10:17 "For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." First and foremost, the passage refers to the Christian Church all over the world. Second, it describes the physical body Jesus took on in the incarnation when God became a human being. With the form of Christ's body, The Temple of the Holy Spirit is built. The Bible also teaches the Temple is God. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 "Do you not know that you are God's Temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's Temple, God will destroy him. For God's Temple is Holy, and you are that Temple."

Quote: "What does Jesus mean when He called the Father the only true God? John 17:3" Another fact: Jesus spoke in parables to His disciples. You have to analyse why Jesus said the Father is the true God. Once again and again, Jesus was a human being, so obviously He was saying that the SPIRITUAL has always been TRUE in regards to His human nature. John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." ESV Further even more, if you are comparing a mortal to an immortal, I will say there is no comparison between a mortal and a true God "in all His glory." So of course the Father will be the true God if you are comparing apples to pears. In this case the flesh and the Spirit.

Quote: "What do you think 'form' means? https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3444&t=KJV the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision;" What you are failing to see is that ALL MEN fell from the glory of God. Jesus did not. That's why Jesus was in the form of God, since He was found SINLESS. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Quote: "Not sure what you accept as proof of the spurious text 1 John 5:7 since you do not accept the older more reliable manuscripts?" You can't discredit a passage when printing presses and word processor programs were not invented. You highly speak of 1 John 5:7 and fail to understand that John taught the Trinity even in 1 John 1:2 by stating the Father was manifested unto us. Without a doubt in 1 Timothy 3:16, God was manifest in the flesh.

Quote: [ Adding bold letters is all we've got to use to make an impact in our sentences.] Lost in the forum but I asked about that. Where do you see BOLD LETTERS? How do you do it?

Quote: [Quote: "Did the ones that Jesus shared the glory that God gave Jesus fall from glory? Does God seek glory for Himself? Does Jesus seek for Himself?" I have answered your questions. The facts are found in the scriptures. You can't disprove the fact that Jesus NEVER fell from the glory of God] I don't see your answer. Since this forum is so good to you, can you answer them again, clearly? "Did the ones that Jesus shared the glory that God gave Jesus fall from glory? Does God seek glory for Himself? Does Jesus seek for Himself?" Can you quote where I said Jesus fell from Glory? Please be honest and quit implying I said things that I did not.

Talk about grasping for straws. Almighty God can do things on His own initiative. Quote: [Why would Jesus seek the glory for Himself? when He said that He can only do what He sees the father doing in John 5:19? Another statement which proves Jesus is God. Angels nor mankind cannot do LIKEWISE as the Father. It takes a God to do what a God does. This is were the logic of water, ice and steam come in effect to speak of the Trinity.] (John 5:19) Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: ?Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.

In relation to your out of context partial quote of my comment in relation to John 17:21-22, notice that I used capital letters in my point and this is what I said: (Isaiah 42:8) I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images. (John 5:41) I DO NOT ACCEPT GLORY FROM MEN (John 8:50) But I am not seeking glory for myself; there is One who is seeking and judging. (John 7:17, 18) If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality. 18 Whoever speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but whoever seeks the glory of the one who sent him, this one is true and there is no unrighteousness in him. (John 17:21, 22) so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I HAVE GIVEN THEM THE GLORY THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN ME, in order that they may be one just as we are one. (Philippians 2:11) and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

Quote: [Quote: "What does Jesus mean when He called the Father the only true God? John 17:3" Another fact: Jesus spoke in parables to His disciples. You have to analyse why Jesus said the Father is the true God. Once again and again, Jesus was a human being, so obviously He was saying that the SPIRITUAL has always been TRUE in regards to His human nature. ] So what about the Holy Ghost? Should not 2/3 of God still be true God? Within the context, at that time, Jesus was speaking plainly in relation to the Father. It was even a prayer. (John 16:25) I have spoken these things to you in comparisons. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in comparisons, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. (John 16:29) His disciples said: See! Now you are speaking plainly and are not using comparisons. (John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

So what about the Holy Ghost? Should not 2/3 of God still be true God? (John 16:25) ?I have spoken these things to you in comparisons. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in comparisons, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. (John 16:29) His disciples said: See! Now you are speaking plainly and are not using comparisons. (John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. Within the context, at that time, Jesus was speaking plainly in relation to the Father. It was even a prayer.

Quote: [Quote: "What do you think 'form' means? https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3444&t=KJV the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision;" What you are failing to see is that ALL MEN fell from the glory of God. Jesus did not. That's why Jesus was in the form of God, since He was found SINLESS. ] Please do not make stuff up in relation to what I see or don't see. Obviously Jesus is the only Man to not sin even when being tested.? (Hebrews 4:15; 5:8) Why do you make up your own definition of FORM?

Quote: [Quote: "Not sure what you accept as proof of the spurious text 1 John 5:7 since you do not accept the older more reliable manuscripts?" You can't discredit a passage when printing presses and word processor programs were not invented. You highly speak of 1 John 5:7 and fail to understand that John taught the Trinity even in 1 John 1:2 by stating the Father was manifested unto us. Without a doubt in 1 Timothy 3:16, God was manifest in the flesh.] Try to concentrate on what is actually being said at (1 John 1:1-2) That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (for the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) It does not say "the Father was manifested". 1 Tim 3:16 was another typo that the KJV got wrong. Check older manuscripts as given above and modern translations that had access to the older more accurate translations. I will repost part so you can see the context.

Try to concentrate on what is actually being said at (1 John 1:1-2) That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (for the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) It does not say "the Father was manifested". Can you not see that it was the "life" that was manifested, the word of life? Who was with the Father? Who was the word?

Quote: [Quote: "(John 17:21, 22) so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me." If you read the scriptures properly, the word "union" is an altered word.] Do a little research. Is 'in' an altered word? https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb/jhn/17/1/t_conc_1014021 g2532 ??? kai https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2532&t=NASB conjunction Strong's ??? ka?, kahee; apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force

Quote: "Where do you see BOLD LETTERS? How do you do it?" Answerbag is outdated. All we have are bold letters. They are letters in all caps to make bold statements. That is something like you are talking loud to get other people's attention. Not that it matters anymore. Since you are ignoring my comments, I doubt if anybody is reading our comments. This is no longer a discussion, it is about who can last the longest, so make yourself comfortable, cause we're in it for months. :D

Quote: "I don't see your answer. Since this forum is so good to you, can you answer them again, clearly?" Then obviously as I made it clear, you are ignoring my comments or perhaps you need glasses. I have told you various times that the Father does not share His glory with no other. Yet, Jesus shares the same glory with the Father by doing LIKEWISE. We as humans cannot do LIKEWISE as the Father, neither can angels. The analogy proves Jesus is God.

To repeat myself over and over again, it takes a God a God to do what a God does. Which comes to mind furthermore that the Son sits at the right hand of the Father. Psalm 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Matthew 22:44 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?"

Become: 1. to come, change, or grow to be (as specified): to become tired. 2. to come into being; develop or progress into: She became a ballerina. v.t. 3. to be attractive on; befit in appearance; suit: That dress becomes you. 4. to be suitable to the dignity, situation, or responsibility of: conduct that becomes an officer."

With Jesus being God, He didn't have to become obedient and lose His Heavenly omnipotence. Jesus CHOSE to become a servant in order for the manifestation of God to take place. Perfect analogy. Quote: "Obviously Jesus is the only Man to not sin even when being tested.? (Hebrews 4:15; 5:8) Why do you make up your own definition of FORM?" the both passages in the book of Hebrews are not a rebuttal in regards to the attributes of Jesus. Nowhere in Scripture will you find that Jesus sinned and fell from the glory of God. The word form in the English dictionary is based on "formation." Since no man has seen the Heavenly Father, God cannot be adequately explained except on the basis that the passage of Philippians teaches the essential deity of Christ and His distinctive Trinitarian person. The Greek word morphe has no reference to shape or any other external mark, but refers to the distinctive nature and character of the being to whom it pertains, and is thus permanently identified with the nature and character.

You ask, how do we bring in the third member to form the Trinity? You must look in the book of Genesis. God's Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters in Genesis 1:2. The Heavenly Father who is a Spirit enabled the Holy Spirit to be a part of Creation. "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. And the Earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. [And the Spirit of God] moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Genesis 1:1-7 Why did the Holy Spirit have to do with Creation? To further prove the Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead, Peter states Ananias had lied to the Holy Spirit in Acts chapter which then Peter makes it clear Ananias was actually lying to God.

Quote: "Can you not see that it was the "life" that was manifested and that the "life" was "manifested"?" And who do you think gives life? Another contradiction on your behalf. Let's see what the scriptures teach. Nehemiah 9:6 "You alone are the LORD You have made the heavens, The Heaven of heavens with all their host, The Earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them [You give life to all of them] And the heavenly host bows down before You." John 1:4 "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men."

To John 17:21-22, using the NASB version to suit your interpretation is meaningless to me. The Bible does not teach there is a unity in the Body of Christ. This is LITERAL thinking on your behalf. One loaf is what 1 Corinthians 10:17 states. With the Holy Spirit, Christians will have the fullness in the Body of Christ to form the Godhead. Ephesians 3:19 "And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."

Hello Tex, with the changes on this site, you can only receive comments in your answers. I left you some comments so you can know what is going on in this subject. You will also be notified if anybody else answers this question.

Hi Tex, you know how Answerbag now works. Rather than leaving you comments in your answer, the best thing to do is check back on this subject.

Thank you, this whole format is hard to deal with. You should be able to use paragraph indentations and such.

No worries, there isn't much we can do on this site.

Hi Rick. Interesting that you brought up people believing only what they are taught and searching the scriptures and praying for holy spirit while isolating John 10:30 from the context. Notice If you notice after Jesus said I and the Father are one at verse 30, It was the unreasoning Jews who thought he was making himself god, in verse 34, he referred to Psalms 82:6 (where Judges were said to be God's) in his defense and reiterated that he said that he was "the Son of God". John 10:30-36 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

By your previous comment, I am sure you agree with 2 Tim 3:16 in reasoning on all of the scriptures. The meaning of oneness is clarified in verses such as John 17:11,21-22; 1Cor 1:10, Phil 2:2 (John 17:11) Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are. (John 17:21-22) in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

Also John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So then we are in agreement that since Jesus defended himself against the charge of claiming to be God in the surrounding verses and the usage of oneness in other verses such as John 17, that John 10:30, taken in context, in no way proves that Jesus is God?

On John 1:1, do you believe that Jesus was the same God that he was with? What do you think of Jesus' use of Psalms 82:6 in His defense where others were called gods? Did you notice that in the Greek, the first God actually says "The God" ton theon where the second is just "god" theos? http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh1.pdf ton qeon qeos

Also, keeping in mind that we have to use all of the scriptures, you also brought up John 1:14. Has anyone ever seen Jesus? Has anyone ever seen God? (John 1:14) So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. (John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father?s side is the one who has explained Him. (1 John 4:12) No one has seen God at any time. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.

First you say we agree next it seems you question it. We are supposed to be leading others to Jesus. To answer your question I don't read Greek it is all Greek to me. Lol

Lol. I don't read Greek either but have dabbled a bit with interlinears and concordances over the years. I was just thinking we were in agreement as you didn't comment on the context of the surrounding or related verses and moved on to something else. In English, we often think of True God or False God. Bible usage of God was a bit different with Hebrew and Greek. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2316&t=DBY Strong's G2316 - theos (Greek) 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way a) God's representative or viceregent 1) of magistrates and judges

King James calls Moses "a god" while other translations say something like "as God" or "like God". Exodus 7:1 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/exo/7/1/t_bibles_57001

Actually I get tired suddenly and it is my neurological then I can't concentrate that well.

That's okay. I have left threads for months at a time in the past and then gone back. Some stuff is pretty deep, other things are pretty simple. Remember that Jesus called The Father the only true God and getting to know Him means everlasting life. Paul also said for Christians, there is but one God the Father. (John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords, 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

We also have to have faith in God and Jesus. (John 14:1) Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God; exercise faith also in me.

Hi Archie B. Gotta agree with you on the passing the plate thingy. The truth is in every translation that I have compared. They all say that there is one God and that God is one, not three. They all say the dead do not know anything. They all say Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. None of the 66 inspired books say the soul is immortal, not sure about the apocrypha and other spurious writings. Then there are some spurious verses in some versions but they have been weeded out through textual criticism and the discovery of older manuscripts like the Sinaticus, Vatican MS 1209, Dead Sea Scrolls and others. Do you believe in God? Jesus? The Bible? What translation/s have you read?

I'm really not interested in reading all the Bible books, Texas. Doesn't interest me in the slightest. I have my faith and that's all I need. I don't need anyone else telling me what one book or another says about how THEY think my faith should be or how THEY think I should act according to what THEIR faith tells them. My faith is mine alone and not up for interpretation by anyone else. No one else's opinion matters to me on the subject. I believe that's the way God intended it to be. Quoting different scriptures doesn't change my mind when putting out answers in most of the topics here on this site. That's just someone else's opinion that's being pasted. That that book is more "right" than any other version. But, to each his own. You're free to believe as you want. That's why America is so freakin' awesome.

Sorry, wasn't trying to offend you. I was not raised in a religious household and the Bible was foreign to me growing up. I was open minded when I grew up though and after reading it and prophecies like the timing of the Messiah at Daniel 9:24-27 and many others as well as other content convinced me that God was behind it and cares about us and speaks to us through it. (Isaiah 48:17, 18) This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: I, Jehovah, am your God, The One teaching you to benefit yourself, The One guiding you in the way you should walk. 18?If only you would pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

It takes alot to offend me, Texas. But you lost me when you started quoting verses.