ANSWERS: 32
  • I didn't know it was considered immoral, although the only people I have ever heard questioning the facts - in other words denying that it happened or suggesting that the scale has been exaggerated, have been members of neo-nazi organisations.
  • You told you it was immoral? Questions are the catalyst to answers.
  • It's not. The people who do are invariable neo-nazis or other people with an interest in disproving it. I personally know several GIs who were there. It happened. The photos and the films are real. Question individual stories, sure. No one is against the truth.
  • I have never heard of such a thing. Did you make that up or what? There are books, movies, documentaries, and museums about the holocaust. Would that give you a clue that it isn't immoral to ask questions about it? People who were in it want everyone to remember it so that it is not repeated.
  • 1) It is not. But it is wrong to *deny* the Shoah (as the Jewish people prefer to call it) or to try to minimize it. And that were not only Jewish people, by the way. Further information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust 2) "Holocaust denial is the claim that the genocide of Jews during World War II — usually referred to as the Holocaust — did not occur in the manner or to the extent described by current scholarship. Key elements of this claim are the rejection of any of the following: that the Nazi government had a policy of deliberately targeting Jews and people of Jewish ancestry for extermination as a people; that between five and seven million Jews were systematically killed by the Nazis and their allies; and that genocide was carried out at extermination camps using tools of mass murder, such as gas chambers. Holocaust deniers do not accept the term "denial" as an appropriate description of their point of view, and use the term Holocaust revisionism instead. Scholars, however, prefer the term "denial" to differentiate Holocaust deniers from historical revisionists, who use established historical methodologies. Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples. For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic conspiracy theory. The methodologies of Holocaust deniers are criticized as based on a predetermined conclusion that ignores extensive historical evidence to the contrary." Source and further information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial 3) "Holocaust denial is widely viewed as unreasonable because it fails to adhere to rules for the treatment of evidence, rules that are recognized as basic to rational inquiry. To support a proposition or allegation, a claimant must offer evidence. The merits of this evidence, and the conclusion it can support, will depend on its nature; for example, hearsay would not normally be considered good evidence, but an eyewitness account would be. A second-hand story would not, but an official, dated and signed document testifying to the alleged incident would be. After evidence has been adduced, the claimant's case is then considered to have been made, and the evidence can be evaluated. The claimant's burden of proof has been carried. If an interlocutor would then like to call the claimant's evidence into question, that interlocutor will have to make a claim of his own — for example, that this or that piece of evidence is a forgery. The burden of proof then shifts to the interlocutor, and the standard of proof will be commensurate with the surety with which the original claim was established. The claimant's evidence has, prima facie, whatever force it has in virtue of its merit as evidence. The interlocutor cannot simply continue demanding more proof to answer any conceivable skeptical conjecture or hypothetical possibility he can invent to challenge the claimant; this raises the claimant's burden of proof to an unreasonable level. In the case of the Holocaust, the survivors, eye witnesses, and historians may collectively be considered the claimants. The prevailing consensus among the informed is that their evidence is overwhelming, and that it proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the Holocaust occurred, and that it occurred as they say it occurred. It is unreasonable to ask the claimants to prove that their evidence is "really real" any more than they already have, unless there is some particular demonstrably credible reason for thinking that it is suspect. If Holocaust deniers would like to cast doubt on this evidence, the burden of proof shifts to them, and they will have a very high standard to meet. They would have to prove, at least with a balance of probabilities, that the greater part of the entire body of evidence attesting to the Holocaust has been fabricated, misrepresented, or misconstrued by thousands upon thousands of critical evaluators. Until they can do that, they have not satisfied the rules for the treatment of evidence recognized to be integral to reason. In the meantime, Holocaust denial will continue to be recognized as an unreasonable position. All of this makes Holocaust denial different from conspiracy theories generally speaking, since the latter aspire to play by the rules of evidence, but the evidence they adduce is judged poor. Holocaust deniers attempt to set unreasonable standards for evidence, so that they can judge the historian's evidence as poor. This is why Holocaust deniers portray Holocaust scholarship as a conspiracy theory. Still, Holocaust denial is often accompanied by a conspiracy theory of a different sort, namely that Holocaust scholars are conspiring to depict what the deniers allege to be a fictional event as if it were fact." Source and further information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial
  • It's not the "to question" that is viewed as immoral...it's the perceived motivation behind it, i.e., hate, following such overwhelming proofs over its actuality.
    • Army Veteran
      Yeah...look at today's Democrats. They believe that truth is hate speech.
    • notyouraveragedummy
      Huh ???
  • Good question. You can say "I don't believe in the moon." "I don't believe in Australia." "I don't believe in Jesus." "I don't believe in God." - No problem. But if you say "I don't believe in the Holocaust." you can actually be put in prison in many countries. Ironically, this might give you some insight into why there was a holocaust in the first place. (Oh no ... there goes my point score forever ....) I don't deny it myself. I have seen the pictures and the newsreels and visited the remains of the camps. I have a friend with a tattoo on his arm. (Actually, I'm sorry to say that he died recently.) These are things that can't be "denied." So ... back to your question ... Why?
  • People that believe this are called "revisionists". I even went undercover as one of them and applied to be on their mailing list, it was an assignment for school at the time. They pass out propaganda denying the holocaust, saying the photos of the emaciated jews in the camps were staged. All the shoes and glasses they collected never happened. Its an outrageous claim and downright insulting to a lot of people to deny this part of history even existed. I wouldn't call it immoral, I'd call it insulting.
    • Army Veteran
      There is no denying that there were emaciated Jews and the shoes and glasses - those are real enough as well. The question comes in when asked what connection these have with gas chambers? A pile of shoes or glasses on display proves only that they were owned by someone at one time. There is no direct link to gas chambers except by the power of suggestion.
    • Victorine
      People who believe there were no gas chambers are being willfully obtuse and unintelligent. The facts are the facts.
    • Army Veteran
      Ever hear the adage "seeing is believing"? Or maybe the one that says "believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"? While people are able to see what they're told is a gas chamber on display, who can say they actually saw one being used? Acceptance of the narrative is mandated through the power of suggestion and the threat of being labeled antisemitic and possibly imprisoned for anyone who questions it. It's a matter of "believe me or go to jail."
    • Linda Joy
      I not only saw one being used, I WAS IN IT! And so was everyone else in boot camp! The tear gas was real, too!!
  • Who called it immoral? Stupidity isn't immoral. The people who commit stupidity may be immoral. Facts ARE. That's what makes them facts. Opinions may vary. But facts stay the same. So if someone has an opinion that the holocaust never happened, it makes them stupid, but not necessarily immoral.
  • Zionist jews created the anti-semitism myth to shield themselves from criticism of any kind. My 2 cents. http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/zionismpromotes.cfm
    • Army Veteran
      It's ironic that the German Jews condemned the same Zionist Jews you refer to, saying, "...But we also feel that now is the time to move away from the irresponsible agitation on the part of so-called Jewish intellectuals (Zionists) living abroad. These men, most of whom never considered themselves German nationals, but pretended to be champions for those of their own faith, abandoned them at a critical time and fled the country. They lost, therefore, the right to speak out on German-Jewish affairs. The accusations which they are hurling from their safe hiding places, are injurious to Germany and German-Jews; their reports are vastly exaggerated." You won't find this in your high school history books because it is, by mainstream definition, "antisemitic".
  • Because millions of people were murdered, and there are survivors with numbers tattoed on their arms to prove it...
  • I don't know about immoral, but I'd say its pretty dumb. The holocaust is one of the most well-documented events in history. The Nazi's obsessively documented everything they did. The shoes and teeth are still piled up in warehouses. The documents still exist. The death camps are largely still standing. You'd have to get into some pretty funky existential arguments to try to explain away the mountains of evidence.
  • We are here to answer and educate when possible, and many of us didn't live though those days, so no I don't think it is.
  • What evidence are you talking about?
  • There's nothing wrong with questioning anything. However the people propagating ideas that it never happened are, much like creationistes who intentionally propagate bogus ideas about evolution,are doing so for their own ends. Usually to inflame ignorant young ultra-nationalists so as to gain some measure of political influence or feelings of fame. The simple fact is that it did happen. Conspiracy theories are transparently BS. I have known people who were in concentration camps and remember them first hand. I have been to a couple myself. There were thousands of eye witnesses. There is film footage shot by both the Nazis and the Allies. The Nazis kept their own records of it. So... honest open questioning is fine. But the motives behind it often aren't and ignoring or denying the first hand reports - in essence calling a vast number of people liars with no evidence - just may be. +5
  • not immoral just insensitive, its like questioning if slavery happened, or racial, religious discrimination
  • I personally believe that holocaust has happened, but I have a question for you? is that the only holocaust that has happened in the world? what about the Rape of Nanking? what about IRAQ? what about Afghanistan? what about Cameron? what about Vietnam? , so why we only talk about Nazi Camps all the time? I am sure when you mention holocaust, every body's mind goes to Nazi's camp. This is dangerous. This is discrimination. If killing people is bad, therefore it does not matter if the people who are killed are Jews, Muslims, Christians, or whoever. We must educate people. we must teach people that holocaust means "a great or complete devastation or destruction" not Nazi's CAMPS and it is not referred to JEWS people only
    • Army Veteran
      You confuse "Holocaust" with "Crimes against humanity". "Holocaust" is strictly a Jewish event. It doesn't pertain to other events that can actually be proven. There was no "Rape of Nanking" - that too was a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese and blamed on the Japanese. Photographic evidence proves that the Japanese treated the Chinese respectfully and that the Chinese there welcomed them. Both the Holocaust and Nanking are accusations created to demonize Germany and Japan, respectively - to make them the bad guys in the eyes of the world thereby justifying the allies' own atrocities against them.
  • It's not immoral to question the facts. I think you mean is it immoral to question whether or not it happened. No, it's not immoral - just uninformed. You don't have to look very far to find opposing views on anything. For that one, however, you'll have to check those white supremacist/nazi sites. You'll be able to recognize them by all their member's diplomas, showing they graduated from the third grade.
    • Army Veteran
      The fact is, WW2 was the only one-sided event in history. Why is it that videos are plentiful showing documented facts from the allied perspective, but anything from the German perspective is getting scarcer to find because it's being censored as "hate speech"? This "hate speech" claim has only existed since political correctness and the influence of Marxism in the West has labeled everything that they don't like "racist". They believe that by destroying history they can remove everything they disagree with from existence. It doesn't work that way, quite to their dismay. There will always be proof that they don't want exposed - it'll just be harder to find.
  • It is not immoral to do so - if you have real contrary facts to show. The Holocaust is well documented. As well as the physical evidence of the camps, of bones, of eye-witness accounts from survivors and of liberators, because of the nature of the Nazi regime there is copious documentary evidence. If you can find solid reasons to disprove this mountain of evidence, it would be correct to do so. But the Holocaust deniers are unable to do so. They depend on belittling the evidence of those who have suffered, and of those who rescued them, on reading the written evidence in a truly improbable way. Because the Holocaust actually happened, any attempt to deny it involves denigrating honourable and truthful people, some of whom suffered appallingly, and other who were traumatized by what they saw. De facto, because it did actually happen, would-be deniers are forced to immoral actions to justify their unpleasant beliefs.
  • 2-17-2017 This thread is a remarkable example of bullshit. People say it's not forbidden, just don't do it. Well,. here is a flash: in Germany IT IS A FELONY TO QUESTION THE OFFICIAL STORY. In USA, any time the subject comes up in conversation IT IS A SOCIAL CRIME TO QUESTION IT IN ANY WAY. Like the responses here, for example. You can't even ask why you can't ask why.
  • It is claimed that it is disrespectful of those who died in the Nazi camps. Laws have been passed to ensure that the narrative is maintained. But I believe that it's more disrespectful to those victims to deny the opportunity to find the truth about what really happened. There are too many unanswered questions that are being swept under the rug and too many false facts that are being promoted as truth.
  • It has happened all the time, that persons that argue with proven facts of history, they are just too stupid to allow to talk.
  • My father's first cousin married a woman from Germany who survived Auschwitz. She was one of the few members of her family that did. I know a man whose parents died in the nazi holocaust. A woman's sister perished because of 'Shitler" The Allies liberating the camps prove the Holocaust happened. Statistics show that one third of Jews lost their lives in those extermination camps and earlier events. Myriad number of other minorities including people with disabilities were victims too.
  • It's not "immoral," dear, merely stupid, since any intelligent and well-educated person knows how to research and study the facts, which are easily available. Take it from a historian.
  • Why do Holocaust deniers insist on being intellectually dishonest? You people ignore the real facts of what happened in favor of your own narrative. You create straw man arguments like "six million Jews were burned in the ovens", which would be physically impossible, and also no one is saying that. That's what's immoral.
  • It's not "immoral" to question the facts. It's ignorant. We have the living witness of the survivors, the testimony of the soldiers who liberated the camps, and most importantly, the meticulous records the nazi's kept on their atrocities that were captured by the allies. There is no denying it except by neo nazis and supremacists, and Islamic enemies of Judaism
  • I would say it depends on whether you're questioning HONESTLY or DISHONESTLY. The fact is that the evidence in favor of the holocaust is massive, overwhelming, and beyond the doubt of any honest questioning. In order for it to be fake you would need literally TENS OF MILLIONS of co-conspirators to have lied their entire lives to perpetuate it. The sheer volume of documents produced makes it one of the best documented crimes in world history. Photographic evidence, video evidence, eyewitness testimony, bodies, physical and forensic evidence. The evidence is so overwhelming and one-sided that no HONEST person insists that it was faked. Only people who are lying in furtherance of a racist agenda and those who blindly follow them without having looked into the topic in their own honest inquiry. If you really want to go digging, by all mean, I invite you to do so. But only if you do so as an honest investigator. Don't just read books by dishonest people who cherry pick and misrepresent facts.
  • Perhaps not immoral, but foolish since we have the physical evidence of the camps in Germany, and many eyewitness firsthand accounts.
  • There is no documented proof that anyone died in gas chambers. No one "knew" about gas chambers until the Soviets liberated Auschwitz. No western allies were allowed to investigate the supposed atrocities in Poland - they just took the Soviets' word for it. There is not a court of law in all of America that will render a verdict in the absence of evidence, but this is just what the western allies did where Auschwitz was concerned. The reason they accepted it so readily was that they, along with the Soviets, hated Germans to the point that they would do anything necessary to prove them guilty of every atrocity imaginable.
  • I have never heard of it being immoral. Learning about the Holocaust is appropriate for effective teaching in general. Education can play a key role in preventing genocide by providing a forum to address past violence.
  • It's censorship. The "Holocaust" is the only subject in the world that is not open to debate. Considering there are two sides to every story, when you're prohibited from questioning facts that don't add up, it becomes obvious that a specific narrative has been set in place and must be protected at all costs.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Are you related to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? https://youtu.be/ITy8nGZmQ_g People who despise the Jews say the Zionist regime relies on the Holocaust, and if it's take away from the regime, the philosophy of its existence disappears.
    • Army Veteran
      You need to educate yourself on modern-day Zionism. https://www.marxists.org/history/international/social-democracy/call/1918/27.htm
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Quote from the link: "6. Finally, on the grounds of the first principles of democracy, the Socialist movement must oppose the formation of a Jewish State in Palestine." The link you added is more of a Palestinian outcry. It is you who needs to educate yourself on the existence of Israel. I'll take it as a yes, you are in some way related to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who is anti-Semitic.
    • Army Veteran
      That's because it is a Palestinian outcry. Go look up the McMahon Agreement (1915) and the Balfour Declaration (1917). In the McMahon Agreement, Palestine was promised to the Arabs TWO years before it was ultimately given to the Zionists ("Jews") in 1919. Britain reneged on their deal with the Arabs when it gave Palestine to the Zionists. Hence, Palestine rightfully belongs to the Arabs and the Zionists ("Jews") are trespassing. When Israel declared itself a sovereign state in 1948, it started a conflict between the two that has been raging ever since.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Why should it matter? There has always been conflict with the Arab countries surrounding Israel, trying to extinct the Jewish race for thousands of years ago until the present. Palestinians would not have existed in Israel if it weren't for the Romans who destroyed the Great Temple, the center of the Jewish Religion in 70AD when Roman troops retook Jerusalem from the Jewish people, razed the city and expelled the Jews from Israel. By all means, Israel has the right to exist, despite of Apartheid and the mistreatment of Palestinians.
    • Army Veteran
      You're talking about Biblical Zionism. I'm talking about the Zionist movement that's only been around since 1895. Big difference.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      There is no difference at all. Israel's long time history and their ambitions of making a greater Israel for the return of their messiah remain in the present. The Great Temple, Judaism and their religious beliefs are still the same. Isn't what the "Jews of today" want is to the rebuild the Third Temple? With the Zionist state, Biden and other countries that support Israel to rebuild their Temple - it is coming.
    • Army Veteran
      Aren't the Jews supposed to remain in exile until the Messiah returns and leads them back to the Promised Land? You have the Jews already back in the Promised Land tidying things up in preparation for the return of the Messiah. Modern-day Zionism is a political movement. Their only interest is maintaining a political state in the Middle East and they use the Jews as tools to that end. They are not the same Zionists of the Bible. If you have trouble understanding what a political movement is, look at Black Lives Matter - they aren't that much different.
    • Linda Joy
      Jenny, I thought you said Christians weren't supposed to get involved politics...
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, the Black Lives Matter movement is not in the Bible. The Jews are back in the promised land due to biblical prophecy. Isaiah 11:12 "He will raise a signal for the nation's and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the Earth." The four corners of the Earth is a figurative term for the outermost borders or most distant parts of the Earth, just exactly how the Jews were in exile before Israel made their independence in 1948. With their independence, the countdown for the Christian Messiah who is Jesus Christ began. Their messiah being unknown in the present is prophesied to come as a political leader, which is also exactly why Zionists, Biden and other countries have been wanting to get the Third Temple underway: "Whether it's in the Temple of Jerusalem or a temple of our democracy, nothing broken or profaned is beyond repair ... nothing," he said. "We can always build back better. Or, perhaps, build back brighter." - Joe Biden Quote: "They are not the same Zionists of the Bible." As you see how politics and biblical prophecies are in context with one another, yet again there is no difference between Israel's long time history and the present. *Facepalm*
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Linda Joy, I did say that. I just thought I would go over the line on this subject with Army Veteran who likes to discuss the Holocaust.
    • Army Veteran
      Maybe you should have read what I commented on to 11stevo73 (below). Regardless of how you want to interpret it, the Jews are back in Israel due to a breach of contract (aka "illegally"). Biden is a Zionist, himself - so there's no surprise there. ¶ "We implore and beseech our Jewish brethren to realize that the Zionists are not the saviors of the Jewish People and guarantors of their safety, but rather the instigators and original cause of Jewish suffering in the Holy Land and worldwide. The idea that Zionism and the State of "Israel" is the protector of Jews is probably the greatest hoax ever perpetuated on the Jewish people... It has been the age-old intention of Zionism to intentionally stir up anti-Semitism anywhere possible, and even more commonly, to take advantage of any Jewish suffering anywhere in order to enhance its cause. Indeed, hatred of Jews and Jewish suffering is the oxygen of the Zionist movement, and from the very beginning has been used to deliberately incite hatred of the Jew and then, in feigned horror, used to justify the existence of the Zionist state. This is, of course, Machiavellianism raised to the highest degree." - Jews Against Zionism
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, I totally understand how the Allies depicted the Axis powers as an evil regime and how the Holocaust was invented by the Allies, the Soviet communists and the Jews for their own ends. True or False, it still serves as an advantage in Israel's rebirth and biblical prophecy. History cannot be changed. It could have been changed in 1967 when Israel was once again compelled to fight for its existence. The Six-Day War was a humiliating defeat for the Arab countries. Until the present, it remains a humiliating defeat, causing Holocaust deniers to spread their information as if the existence of Israel can be reversed. It doesn't matter how Palestinians feel about their rights being violated or what you have to say. Israel is far more powerful now than ever before. Biblical Christians know Zionism is not a good cause. It is the contrary to make way for the false messiah who will bring world destruction. So I agree, Zionists are not the protectors of Jews, since Revelation 7:4 says only 144,000 of the elect will be saved. That's the amount of Jews who will become Christians. And since nobody knows the day or hour of Christ's return, Christians are assured that Zionists are fulfilling Bible prophecy. Therefore, it's a win-win for Christians.
    • Army Veteran
      1967. Is that the farthest you want to go back? Do you remember why Lebensraum was condemned when the Germans were accused of it? The world didn't like the idea of one country invading another country to expand its living space. But that's exactly what Israel did. Before Israel declared itself a state, Palestine had a large area. Look at any map today and see if you can even find the word "Palestine". The area once controlled by the Arabs has become the state of Israel - Palestine fights for its existence and they're the ones at fault. Israel invaded Palestine to expand its living space. But the world is okay with that - the difference being that one involved hated Germans and the other involves supported Jews. And you justify it with "all's well that ends well"? You don't let facts stand in your way, do you?
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, it doesn't matter what Israel did or does. The importance is: Israel made their independence in 1948. No country is going to change it. Again, the Arab countries had their chance in 1967 to change history, and they blew it. If the Arab countries had succeeded, the Jews would have still been in exile. I am more concerned with Bible prophecy than the emotions you and other Holocaust deniers believe. Let's say everything you say is true. What are you going to do about it to reverse the call, and make Israel Palestine again?????????????????????
    • Army Veteran
      "It doesn't matter what Israel did or does...". Would it matter to you if someone who used to live in your house came in and threw you out just so they can have it again? How did the Arab countries "have their chance" in 1967? The Zionists had already been entrenched in Israel for nearly 20 years and they had the support of the rest of the political world behind them - everyone is afraid to offend the Jews, and this is what modern-day Zionism counts on to stay in power. The Jews should still be in exile. The Messiah (however you want to define him) is Christ. Upon the return of Christ, He will lead the Jews back to the Promised Land. Theodore Herzl is the one you're referring to as the "Messiah" - and I hate to break it to you, but that "Messiah" died a long time ago. Your (and most other people's) problem is, you're unable to differentiate between the political sphere and the religious sphere. Just because they use the word "Zionist" to refer to themselves and their political movement doesn't mean they are the same Zionists that the Bible refers to. The political Zionists have only been around since 1895 and so they couldn't possibly be the same. As far as "reversing the call" as you put it, there's nothing that can be done unless people wake up and see the truth. People need to get over their cognitive dissonance where this is concerned and see the light of day.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      I have given you an answer in regards to the 1967 Six-Day War, as Israel fought for their existence. The country became stronger and accelerated the prophecies of the Bible. Quote: "Would it matter to you if someone who used to live in your house came in and threw you out just so they can have it again?" That has been the Palestinian outcry in Israeli courts ever since Israel made their independence. I know it sounds harsh to go around and expel people from their homes, but you must understand - "To the victor go the spoils." The phrase couldn't be any clearer. For this reason, the US should give the Native Americans back their lands, and you know that's not happening, and neither will the Jews give one inch of land to the Palestinians. *Double Facepalm*
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      BTW, a facepalm is not a bad word. It just means you should acknowledge your mistakes in your argument. You are beating a dead horse.
    • Army Veteran
      You're a difficult person to debate because truth and legalities mean nothing to you. You have your head twisted around a false concept of what Zionism is, and you obviously suffer from cognitive dissonance. "Brilliant"? Didn't we discuss this before? LOL - I don't think so.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, Jews in exile, Zionism conspiracies, the rebirth of Israel, their surrounding enemies, the Great Temple getting rebuilt, the false messiah to Armageddon is all tied up in the scriptures. To my username, you really should change yours to "Angry Veteran." LOL
    • Army Veteran
      "Zionism conspiracies"? Do you know anything about the separation of church and state? The US government recognizes it, and yet, no matter how many times I explain it to you, you can't seem to understand. Do you know why it is so important to understand? (No...but I'll explain it to you anyway.) "Antisemitism" laws protect the Jews - that's "Jews in a religious and cultural sense". "Antisemitism" doesn't extend to politics. If it did, there would be nothing Zionism couldn't get away with because everyone would be too afraid to criticize them (most people are already afraid). If Zionism of the Bible and modern-day Zionism were the same thing, why did they establish Zionism as a political movement in 1895? They are not the same. They did exist prior to 1895, but not as "Zionists". Prior to becoming a formally recognized political movement, they were just "Jews" - but they were still political Jews. These are the ones who have been despised throughout history. To repeat myself, they are NOT the Zionists referred to in the Bible. Those Zionists were actually advocates for the Jews. The political Jews, in contrast, followed a completely different agenda - one that involved accumulating power and wealth. Just because they called themselves Jews don't mean they adhered to the culture. And just because they call themselves Zionists doesn't mean they are the same Zionists of Biblical reference. They exploit these characteristics, hiding behind the respected entities and using them as a shield to deflect criticism and exposure. You don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist - Joe Biden is a Zionist.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, I see you want to continue with this debate. You know me, we can be here for months, so buckle up. :D
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, Zionism is Israel’s national ideology. Zionists believe Judaism is a nationality as well as a Religion, and that Jews deserve their own state, whether it is done politically or through biblical prophecy. Many Christians have been brainwashed by Jewish propaganda and lies. Biblical Christians know there is only 1 Savior of the world, being Jesus Christ. When the Bible is taught in context, more and more Christians are becoming aware of the Zionist conspiracy which didn't start in 1895. It actually started nearly 2000 years ago when Satan tempted Jesus at The Mount of Temptation n Matthew 4:9 "And he said to Him, All these I will give You, if You will fall down and worship me.” You are looking at the surface of Zionism, and it is fruitless to do so. I am looking beyond the surface to give people knowledge to convert. The Great Temple is the biggest conspiracy to make way for the false messiah and start Armageddon. What part of biblical prophecy do you not understand?
    • Army Veteran
      So...what does declaring war on Germany have to do with returning the Jews to their homeland? This is especially relevant knowing that by agitating Hitler that way, the Zionists threw Jews from several European countries under the bus. Is that what you call being a "Jewish advocate"? I'm sure God approved of the open promiscuousness in Germany during the 1920s. Yeah, your "Zionism" did a lot to advance the welfare of the Jews, didn't it? And did you know that the Balfour Declaration would never have been written had it not been for the fact that Britain was losing WW1 and needed the (neutral) United States to come in as its ally and pull their asses out of the fire? An entire country was suckered into something that was none of their business in that one. And you know the "6 million exterminated Jews" bit? That goes back as far as the turn of the 20 century - it is not a factual representation of what was supposed to have taken place in WW2. Neither was "4 million" or "1.5 million" since those are nothing but backpedaling made after it was determined that "6 million" was not possible. And yet, the debates always, always center on "6 million" as some kind of default number. Why is that? It's a lie but still, pointing it out is "antisemitic". The reason it is always pushed as "6 million" is to ensure that future generations get indoctrinated the right way.
    • Army Veteran
      You might want to check this out: https://tinyurl.com/26h3pbb7
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      It is all written in Scripture. Declaring war on Germany was nothing but politics involved, and with the agenda of Germany gaining more territory in Europe. In part of Jesus' response to His disciples’ question, "Tell us, what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matthew 24:3), Jesus responded, "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars* (Matthew 24:6). Because of Jesus’ words in this passage, whenever there is an explosion of conflict, especially in the vicinity of Israel, many people begin to wonder if the past wars to the new wars are a sign of the end times. It is estimated, 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. You said it yourself before in other WW2 questions - that it was Zionists who threw those Jews to the wolves for extermination.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Quote from the tinyurl link: "The Jewish people have existed for thousands of years." It is exactly what I have been saying. Israel belongs to the Jews. Anybody who says differently is anti-Semitic.
    • Army Veteran
      If that's all you got from the TinyURL link, you need to read less selectively - you're cherry-picking. "...and with the agenda of Germany gaining more territory in Europe." Oh - you mean like how Israel gained more territory at the expense of the Palestinians? (Have you ever located Palestine on the map? It used to be so big before 1948...before Israel started expanding its living space.) I don't recall saying anything about "for extermination", since I oppose that claim. But I have said before that the Zionists threw the German Jews under the bus - that's what declaring war on Germany did. Do you deny that they did that or are you denying that the Jews suffered while in German custody? If you agree that the Zionists declared war on Germany, then, based on your own philosophy, what happened to the Jews was..."whatever will be will be". Why did the Zionists declare war on Germany - what did Hitler do to them or to the Jews? When Hitler came to power, his only concern was to save Germany from the devastation that came about as a result of the Versailles Treaty and to keep Communism out of Germany. What did any of this have to do with the Jews, and why would Zionism declare war on Germany after only 53 days under Hitler's leadership? The Enabling Act did nothing more than return government and economic control back over to the German people, and the Nuremberg Laws were never passed until 2 years after Zionism declared war on Germany. Don't you think Germany had a right to exercise its sovereignty? Before you answer, you should know that a nation's right to sovereignty is protected by international law. This was denied to Germany by the Treaty of Versailles, so the illegal attacks against Germany started as early as 1919. How long until someone is able to defend themself?
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      You provided the tinyurl link, I responded. I read the whole article. I saw how the article stated how the Jewish people have existed for thousands of years. There is no need to go all the way back to the Old Testament. The New Testament already proves how the Romans persecuted the Jews and forced them into exile. The Roman Emperor Hadrian changed the provincial name of Judea to Palestine to erase the Jewish presence in the land. The Temple Mount in Jerusalem represents the greatest point of sanctity for the Jewish people. Al-Aqsa mosque has been contested by the Jews and Palestinians. Soon already, it will be demolished, as the world leaders will have an agreement to rebuild the Third Temple. So much for International law. It is why Israel has been cleansing the state with Apartheid. Who is going to do something about it??? Certainly it won't be Biden or NATO. To the victors go the spoils in the 1967 Six-Day War. Palestinians fighting for their rights in Israel is a lost cause.
    • Army Veteran
      "Israel is the only place on Earth where Jews can live as Jews. Those who continue to call the so-called "state of Israel" the "Jewish State" are not only promoting Zionism which is contrary to the beliefs of true Judaism but also endorsing the promotion of worldwide anti-Semitism. In doing so they are endangering the lives of traditional Jews and denying their civil liberties and human rights." - Ariel Sharon, 11th Prime Minister of Israel ¶ You must have missed this part in the link: "According to the Jewish faith and Torah law the Jewish people are forbidden to have their own state while awaiting the Messianic era." You claim to support the Jews, but you oppose Torah law. Interesting...
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      The Jewish people are not forbidden to have their own state. The land of Israel was given by God to the descendants of Abraham. In the Book of Genesis, God appeared to Abraham and said: "I will assign this land to your offspring" (Genesis 15:18-21). God made a covenant, being an agreement with Abraham. He repeats this covenant is eternal and unconditional throughout the Bible. I don't claim to support the Jews. Most of them hate Christians. So having the Jews fulfill the prophecies is definitely a win-win for Christians.
    • Army Veteran
      So the Torah is a worthless piece of fiction - is that what you're saying? Isn't that antisemitic?
    • Army Veteran
      "The land of Israel was given by God to the descendants of Abraham." Was that before they were exiled for disobeying God? I have no qualms about the agreement being eternal, but when God kicks them out and tells them not to come back until they are led back by the Messiah (Jesus) they should stay gone - wouldn't you agree? Since Jesus has not returned yet, we have to assume that the political Zionists (Theodor Herzl - the one who founded political Zionism) represent a false Messiah (Herzl died in 1904 - not a very healthy messiah, was he?). In fact, most of the Jews never wanted to return to Israel - they were forced. They spent generations in their host countries, learning the language and customs so they could fit in as inconspicuously as possible. It wasn't THEY who declared war on Germany. It was their so-called political "intellectuals" - the Zionists. And the German Jews condemned the Zionists for it. The aim of the Zionists was to cause the Jews to be persecuted so much that they would do anything to go to Israel. It was because of this that they moved from country to country - political persecution. By forcing and manipulating Jews back to Israel, the Zionists could justify their political state.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, where in the Torah is it prophesied that Israel will become a nation in the later times, as well as the return of the messiah the Jews are expecting? Abraham is the father of Isaac and Jacob, and the father of the Jewish nation. Quote: "God kicks them out and tells them not to come back" But Ramses II is the principal villain of the Exodus story. Unlike the pha­raoh who knew Joseph, the pharaoh of Moses is cruel and vindictive. What was God to do, free His people or let them all die in Egypt as slaves? Then there would be no promised land. In biblical prophecy, Herzl was not it. Rabbi Yitzhak Kaduri who devoted his life to the Torah, and the most revered holy men in Israel revealed the Messiah in a note he wrote to be opened a year after his death: https://youtu.be/k0DTT3u2JZ8 The Jews thought it was a mistake he made and refused to accept his revelation. What the Bible says about the false messiah being a politician holds true.
    • Army Veteran
      First, you ask me to show where the return of the Jews can be found in the Torah - a question you knew the answer to before you even asked it. I don't study the Torah and so the chances of me answering to your satisfaction would have been extremely low from the start - you set yourself up for a "win" on this part of the debate. Next, you keep bringing up the Exodus - we're not talking about the Exodus here - we're talking about the Exile. They both may begin with the letter "E" and involve moving large groups of people, but they're not the same thing. The Exodus involved the departure of the Hebrew slaves from Egypt under the leadership of Moses, whereas the exile involved banishing the Jews because they disobeyed God. As to Rabbi Yitzhak Kaduri, it's understandable that the Jews refused to buy into his "note" after he told them that he had spoken with the messiah (LOL). This brings to mind the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion which are claimed to be invalid. Going back to what is or isn't contained in the Torah, I can only say that I have presented reasonable statements based on the documented evidence that is easily available. If you want anything in more detail, you'll need to locate an orthodox Jew and have him explain it to you.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, I know the Torah does not show Israel will become a nation after hundreds of years of exile and the return of the Messiah. That's why I'm asking you who brought up why I don't accept the Torah. The books contained in the Torah are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Good luck finding those prophecies to support your claims. You don't know what you're talking about if you can't provide Scripture to say the Jews are not supposed to have a country, but be in exile until the return of their messiah. The Hebrews did not disobey God before they were enslaved by Ramses II. They didn't even know God's name then. John 1:11 makes it clear why the Jews of 2000 years ago and the Jews of today still refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Messiah. John 1:11 "He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him." In other words, Rabi Yitzhak Kaduri revealed to the Jews who the Messiah is, and they refuse to receive His name as the Savior of the world. I don't need to talk to the Orthodox Jews. I've heard enough from them by watching videos, were they say Jews and Palestinians should live in harmony together in Israel, along with the Third Temple should not be rebuilt until the coming of their messiah. You see? Until the coming of their messiah, not the Christian Messiah.
    • Army Veteran
      I would guess that the text comes from Isaiah. You don't include Isaiah in your list of books that make up the Torah, but the Jews recognize the entire Old Testament as the Written Torah, and their beliefs come from there. Isaiah 43:5-6 seems to cover the return to Israel pretty well. As far as recognizing Jesus Christ as the Messiah, I think you (and the Jews) are talking about apples and oranges. "Jesus", "Messiah", Buda" - each culture has their own reference to a divine spiritual leader. If the Jews believe they will be redeemed when the Messiah returns, the Western culture could say the same thing but substitute the word "Christ". This is one case where the ends do justify the means and everyone is on the same page - they're just using different books. ¶ "The Hebrews did not disobey God before they were enslaved by Ramses II." A-a-a-and who brought that into the conversation? ¶ So you're saying that Jews and Palestinians shouldn't live in harmony together in Israel? Where should the Palestinians live? In their own country? In Palestine? I've asked you a couple of times to find Palestine on the map and I've had no response. Is it because you couldn't find Palestine? There's a good reason for that - there's no such thing as Palestine.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, Isaiah is not in the Torah. There are only 5 books in the Torah that Moses wrote. It is true the Jews recognize the entire Old Testament, but don't lose track, we are discussing the Torah. This deserves another Facepalm. LOL
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Quote from a comment of yours: "whereas the exile involved banishing the Jews because they disobeyed God." Whether the Jews disobeyed God after the Exodus all the way to the Roman destruction of Israel to defend my position - one thing for certain, all men have sinned, and have fallen short of the glory of God by Romans 3:23. I didn't say the Jews and Palestinians should live in harmony together. I said the Orthodox Jews believe that. You can hear it for yourself in this short video clip: https://youtube.com/shorts/HH0Lr2nM2qY?feature=share
    • Army Veteran
      There are 5 books in the Oral Torah. The Written Torah encompasses the entire Old Testament. You don't appear to recognize orthodox Jews and their beliefs except in acknowledging that they exist. ¶ "I didn't say the Jews and Palestinians should live in harmony together." Apparently not - you believe that although they owned and possessed the land, it was okay for political Zionism to drive them out. I don't even know if you accept the Jewish Exile since you can't seem to recognize the difference between "Exile" and "Exodus" - they took place about 700 years apart. Thus, you can't wrap your head around the terms of the Exile and the law that told when the Jews were allowed to return. You speak of false prophets and then support the return of the Jews in 1948 as a "divine event" when it was the result of manipulation by a Zionist political movement that is only been in existence for a little over 125 years. You have no idea who the modern-day Zionists are. Zionism isn't "Zionism" just because they share the same name. And you're afraid to find out because it will create cognitive dissonance for you. I saw the video, BTW. Nice how you chose a stereotypical example - is this how you see orthodox Judaism, or is this the farthest into it you've ever gotten? Let me ask you this - if God is on the side of the Zionists and the Jews they've imported into Israel, why would they need nuclear weapons?
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, the Torah was given to the entire Jewish people, and the Hebrews attained it, and under its influence, they became aware of its mission, its purpose and overtime, they became the people of the book. I did not make up the short video clip I added. Judaism, just like Christianity teaches to love your neighbor as yourself. (Leviticus 19:18) The Orthodox Jews believe in a two-state solution for the best interest of both parties. For the Palestinians, it would mean having for the first time in history their own state with the promise of international recognition and substantial economic development. The greatest exile in Jewish history is dated to the Roman destruction of Israel. It is what caused the Jews to scatter all over the world. Biblical prophecy has revealed that God had brought the Jews back from exile after WW2, making the Jews return to Israel and create their own independent state, which will never again be taken. That's why they have nuclear weapons.
    • Army Veteran
      It's your story. Believe what you want.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Yes, it's my story based on the scriptures.
    • Army Veteran
      "The Orthodox Jews believe in a two-state solution for the best interest of both parties." - ...Interesting that Israel doesn't. ¶ "Judaism, just like Christianity teaches to love your neighbor as yourself." - So what Israel is practicing isn't Judaism since they have driven the Palestinians almost out of existence. ¶ Political Zionism: "We are the Aristocrats of the world." - It's hard to "love your neighbor" when you think you're better than everyone else. ¶ "Yes, it's my story based on the scriptures." - Show me where the scriptures mention returning from exile after WW2 or in 1948. This is your own interpretation based on events that have already happened. If Israel had declared itself a nation in 1936 you'd be claiming that 1936 was foretold by the scriptures. There is no mention of the return from exile in the first 5 books because it doesn't show up (((in the scriptures))) until Isaiah. But with Isaiah being out of your purview, you want to create your own timeline and treat what the Orthodox Jews believe as if it's not important. You're against Orthodox Jews because they're against Zionism. Maybe they know something you don't - like what political Zionism really is.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, Israel is an independent state. They can do what they want in their country, regardless if the Orthodox Jews think differently. The 1967 war is particularly important for today’s conflict, as it left Israel in control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, 2 territories home to Palestinian populations. With the cleansing of Palestinians, it keeps showing how Israel is becoming a stronger country in which no hostile country towars Israel will ever turn the prophecies around. None of what you say matters, since Israel will not be moved again from power.
    • Army Veteran
      I liked how you phrased "the cleansing of Palestinians" when the Palestinians were there before "Israel" forced its way in and "became a nation". You've acknowledged that Israel was the aggressor and that in "cleansing the Palestinians", they're engaging in the extermination of the Palestinians - not with Zyklon B, perhaps, but to put it in a way you'd understand, "the ends justify the means". Why is it that the world was so against the "extermination of the Jews" (they really weren't), but they're so on board with "exterminating the Palestinians"? The reason Israel is becoming a stronger nation has nothing to do with your "prophecies". It's because they have the strongest country in the world as their guard dog. Israel was supposed to be the "homeland of the Jews" - so why are more Jews living in the United States than in Israel? It's like I've said before - because the "homeland of the Jews" claim by the modern-day Zionists was nothing more than a selling point to gain world sympathy to support their agenda of creating a political state in the Middle East. This helps to clarify why the Zionists of the Bible and modern-day Zionism are not the same thing nor do they have the same agenda. Just because both use the word "Zionists" doesn't make them the same any more than all of the "Smiths" in the country are of the same family. You're being hoodwinked and you're afraid of some divine lightning bolt to strike you if you admit it.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, quote: "I liked how you phrased "the cleansing of Palestinians" when the Palestinians were there before "Israel" forced its way in and "became a nation". And??? It was done for the same reason of the removal of the Native Americans in the US. It was to make westward expansion for Americans easier. Those who believed in Manifest Destiny felt that Native Americans were stopping them from moving westward. In the years leading up to the approval of the Indian Removal Act, Andrew Jackson was a main advocate for the cause. *Quadruple Facepalm*
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, quote: "Why is it that the world was so against the "extermination of the Jews" (they really weren't)," Oh, but antisemitism goes all the way back to the Exodus, the Romans and the Jews in exile during WW2 and until the present. Which is why Israel is surrounded by enemies in the Middle East. Quote:" This helps to clarify why the Zionists of the Bible and modern-day Zionism are not the same thing nor do they have the same agenda." You just keep going backwards. Zionism has been a movement for the re-establishment and the development of Israel. And again whether it is for a good or bad cause, biblical prophecy does not change.
    • Army Veteran
      (ROFL) - Kiddo, the Native Americans moved West because European settlers were encroaching on their hunting grounds and it was causing conflicts between the two peoples. The "Native Americans" were paid well (hundreds of millions of dollars in current value) and were assisted by the government. While it was strongly suggested by the government that they move (for their own benefit), it wasn't a mandatory requirement as the descendants of Cherokee found in Florida and North Carolina today can attest. The "Trail of Tears" was a hoax. The term itself was never used until years later as it talked about something else entirely (an old road). Yes, some did die along the way from disease - such a thing happens to old men and women from time to time. But the casualties weren't as many as history claims (the actual numbers were recorded by Cherokee elders and can be found in their archives. The totals recorded by the Cherokee almost match those recorded by the government.) And they weren't all along the so-called "Trail of Tears". Many of the Cherokee tribes in North Carolina joined them in their trek West. You're as knowledgeable in Native American history as you are in WW2 history, I see...
    • Army Veteran
      "Oh, but antisemitism goes all the way back to the Exodus, the Romans and the Jews in exile during WW2 and until the present." - Yes, it does. "Antisemitism" as was aimed at the Jews in the cultural sense. I don't deny that - never have. But there's a difference between the actual practice of antisemitism and exploiting it to cause hardship against the Jews just to justify your lust for domination. ¶ "Antisemitism goes all the way back to the Exodus, the Romans, and the Jews in exile during WW2 and until the present." - in a manner of speaking, you're correct. But what was the cause? Antisemitism during WW2 was mostly the result of taking advantage of Germany's vulnerability after it was crippled by the Versailles Treaty and agitating Hitler once he came to power to take Germany back. The "6 million exterminated Jews" propaganda dates back to around the turn of the 20th century - approximately 5 years AFTER Zionism was established as a political movement and decades BEFORE anyone ever heard of Hitler. It was a sort of theme park that stayed open as long as it was successful in raising money and gaining world sympathy. The fact that it was still showing in a theater near you when Hitler came to power only worked in their favor. This was the basis for the accusations of gas chambers and Jewish exterminations - not falsified "facts" made up by the Soviets. These Zionists were accusing Hitler of exterminating Jews as early as Aug 6, 1933 - less than 7 months into his role as Chancellor. Do explain this.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, quote: "Yes, it does. "Antisemitism" as was aimed at the Jews in the cultural sense." After WW2, antisemitism should have been over. Instead, antisemitism remains in the present. Last year in 2021 in May between Israeli forces and the militant group Hamas had an effect that rippled across the US, and gave rise to a record number of antisemitic incidents of assaults, harassment and vandalism in more than 40 years. Why would the Soviets make up lies? The US and the Soviet Union, being Russia have always had a tense relationship. It is not like the Jewish liberation of the extermination camps in Poland benefited the Soviets in WW2.
    • Army Veteran
      Why should antisemitism have been over after WW2? The Germans weren't the only ones who despised the Jews - but based on this logic, they must have been since "it should have been over" after Germany lost. Again, you can't see the whole picture. "Why would the Soviets make up lies? " - you really need to ask? They hated Germans as much or more than the Zionists - it's not surprising, since most of the Soviets were Jews. So, why were there no "gas chambers" (as it was claimed) found anywhere in Germany, but they were common in Poland? Was there a magical power along the border that prevented the Germans from setting up gas chambers in Germany but not Poland? Perhaps you never knew this but after the war, the Western allies were not permitted in Poland. So they never investigated whether there were gas chambers or not - they took the Soviets' word for it. But America and Britain both hated Germans in their own right - Churchill wanted to exterminate every last German and Eisenhower routinely wrote to his wife telling her how much he hated Germans - so it was easy for the Western allies to accept Russia's gas chamber claims sight unseen. And let's not forget about statistician and sociologist Jacob Lestchinsky, who, on January 8, 1945, wrote an article for the New York Times with the headline "6,000,000 Jews Dead". Take note of this date because the Soviets didn't Liberate Auschwitz until January 27, 1945. How did Lestchinsky know that "6,000,000" would die if no one would know about Auschwitz until 19 days later?
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, putting an end to antisemitism creates a peaceful world among the Jews and those who hate them. It is totally against Scripture to have hate for a certain type of people. As we see each day, violent antisemitism and hatred did not end after WW2. Take a visit to Poland. The 6 extermination camps were Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdanek and the most famously Auschwitz-Birkenau. Auschwitz and Majdanek death camps also used extermination through labour in order to kill their prisoners. The liberation of the Jews has been documented in real live footage events in 1945 by the Allies. By no means does it benefit Russia to have seen the Jews getting treated inhumanely. The 6 million Jews who perished is a rough estimate, not to mention the mass shootings of Jews in forests and deserts.
    • Army Veteran
      "It is totally against Scripture to have hate for a certain type of people." Yet, Israel hates the Palestinians. What you mean to say is that it's against Scripture for the world to hate the Jews, but it says nothing about hating anyone else. ¶ Oh...here we go with the Polish extermination camps. How do you know there were extermination camps...because the Soviets said so? Because you see photos of a holocaust? (Before you run away with that one, be advised that there's a "holocaust" and there's what is called "The Holocaust". They are not the same - you should educate yourself before you comment.) There's no denying that the Jews were liberated, but don't call death camps extermination camps - because they weren't. ¶ "The 6 million Jews who perished is a rough estimate" - yeah, a commonly referred-to "rough estimate". So tell me - how is it that they had been "roughly estimating it" for more than 30 years before WW2? Crystal ball? Did they use the same crystal ball that Jacob Lestchinsky did when he claimed 6 million Jews had died - weeks before anyone knew anything about Auschwitz? How did he pull that one off? ¶ What mass shootings? How do you know the Germans were doing the mass shootings and not the Soviets? You should read up on the Katyn Forest Massacre. The Soviets were shooting Polish Jews in that one (oh, wait! The Soviets had no reason to hate Jews, did they? - my mistake...)
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, quote: "Yet, Israel hates the Palestinians." Israel doesn't hate the Palestinians. The problem with Palestinians, no country wants anything to do with them, not even the Arab countries. Palestinians are rebellious people. You give them a hand, and they'll take your whole arm. King Abdullah from Jordan accepted them after WW2. At the same time, the Jordanians realized the Palestinian refugees were nothing but trouble, and were kicked out of the country. In 2011, Jordan again refused entry and forcibly deported Palestinian refugees escaping Syria.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, the extermination camps exist, thanks to the internet, in particular YouTube - all 6 extermination camps are on film. In Auschwitz itself, more than 16,000 personal items belonging to victims, including a room of hair by Nazi deaths have been recovered in Poland, decades after they were put away and then forgotten about. What mass shootings? The mass shooting of Jewish victims in the summer and fall of 1941 represents the first phase of the Holocaust, often referred to by historians as "the Holocaust by bullets." The first ever archaeological excavations at the Nazi death camp Treblinka have revealed new mass graves were thousands of Jews died. Burials and deposition sites remain unlocated and unmarked and few of the burials found have been examined by specialists.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, as for, it could have been the Soviets who were committing the mass murders: the Soviet Union did not care about the Jews. Their concern was to destroy Nazi Germany in a pay back when Hitler decided to invade the Soviet Union in 1941 Operation Barbarossa. A huge mistake for Hitler. 4 years later in 1945, the Soviets just happened to be at the right place, at the right time when they came across the extermination camps.
    • Army Veteran
      LOL - and you call yourself "brilliant". "Palestinians are rebellious people. You give them a hand, and they'll take your whole arm." - Where did you hear this? You've never acknowledged that there is even a Palestine left. Sure, you have some Palestinian people fighting for their right to exist, but you have yet to give me the location of Palestine on any map. It used to be a large chunk of real estate prior to 1948 while Israel was nowhere to be seen. Suddenly, Israel comes along and Palestine disappears. I need you to explain that before you go saying "Palestinians are rebellious people. You give them a hand, and they'll take your whole arm." because you're making baseless claims. ¶ "...thanks to the internet, in particular YouTube - all 6 extermination camps are on film." - Nooo, you have 6 labor camps that are purported to be extermination camps - by the credible (LOL) Soviets. Once again (for those of you who don't like to pay attention in class), the Western allies were never allowed access to investigate the camps in Poland. The only "irrefutable" (ahem!) evidence comes from the ever-trusting Soviets who, while fighting side-by-side with the Western allies were plotting against them to expand Communism to Europe and then the West. But that's not important - the important thing to remember is that Germany was the bad guy and we must all commit that to memory (there may be a pop quiz). ¶ What does the room full of hair signify (you forgot to mention the shoes and glasses and other personal belongings)? According to legend, these are supposed to be proof that the Jews were exterminated. If that's how to prove the way someone died, let me visit the local landfill and bring back some people's personal belongings and you tell me how they died. The only thing hair and other personal belongings support is the one crucial aspect of the war that none of you Holocaust supporters ever want to talk about - the disease (typhus mainly) epidemics. And if you bothered to look at facts from WW1, you'd see that typhus was worse in the east (Poland). So it comes as no surprise that when conditions favored a resurgence of the epidemic it would be worse in Poland than anywhere else. Here's another point of logic you overlook when you ignore the disease epidemics: with typhus being such a threat (not just to the prisoners, but to the local population as well), they needed all of the Zyklon B they could get their hands on to fight the disease. Why, in God's name, would they waste so much of it in "gas chambers" when they didn't have enough to take care of themselves? ¶ Where are the autopsies that prove that the Jews were killed by Zyklon B? There are none. One of the prisoners, a kapo, named Dario Gabbai claimed that the bodies he dragged to the crematory had a black & blue appearance. No one - not a single witness got the appearance correct and it's not documented anywhere. The lethal ingredient in Zyklon B is cyanide. Victims of cyanide poisoning have a cherry-red appearance. Not a single documented case of "extermination" showed this. No "red", no cyanide, and no Zyklon B. ¶ Now we come to Operation Barbarossa - the "surprise" attack against the Soviets. This has got to be one of the biggest myths to come out of the war (other than "gas chambers"). Here's something else you didn't know. The reason Stalin signed the Non-Aggression Pact with Hitler was to buy time. He (Stalin) approached the British in the early part of August 1939 wanting to join forces and attack Germany (before Germany invaded Poland). Britain couldn't offer much because its own forces were inadequate. Upon hearing this, Stalin signed the agreement with Germany. And waited. After the Soviets invaded Poland and took control, they started amassing their forces along the line of demarcation in preparation to attack Germany once the Western allies divided and weakened them. Hitler found out what was going on and launched a pre-emptive strike against the Soviets ("Operation B
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, it is no surprise why Jordan rejects Palestinian refugees. In Israel, Palestinians are well-known to create terrorism by means of Hamas. Lots of videos are shown on YouTube. In giving Palestinians a hand or a small amount of freedom to do something, they will try to get a lot more. And since 2007, Israeli authorities have with narrow exceptions, banned Palestinians from leaving through Erez, the passenger crossing from Gaza into Israel, through which they can reach the West Bank and travel abroad via Jordan. Israel also prevents Palestinian authorities from operating an airport or seaport in Gaza. Quote: "Sure, you have some Palestinian people fighting for their right to exist," Their fight for existence is useless. Palestinians have been conquered as a people. They don't have a future in Israel. The chance they have is to get their acts together, and perhaps the Arab countries will reconsider accepting them into their countries.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, the Jews personal belongings cover everything from clothes, glasses to the most expensive items being jewelry. The hair displayed at what became the Auschwitz museum obviously belonged to a massive crowd of people who went in the camp. It is said in WW2 documentaries that shooting a massive amount of Jews in the wilderness was a waste of bullets, a contamination of the rivers, and how Heinrich Himmler, the chief architect of the Final Solution thought of the gas chambers using Zyklon B and suggested the idea to Hitler. The cyanide-based pesticide was invented in Germany in the 1920's. It makes perfect sense for the Nazis to have killed over a million victims, most of them Jews in the death camps with Zyklon B. The signing of the 1939 Nazi-Soviet Pact marked a temporary cessation of overt hostilities between the 2 nations. Yet both Hitler and Stalin viewed this a temporary lull, and for good reason when it comes to fascism and socialism.
    • Army Veteran
      It's incredible the way your narrative can so easily sidestep documented facts. I've asked you numerous times to point out Palestine on a map - all I hear are crickets. Yet, you want to paint Palestinians as such a powerful nation that the entire Middle East has to wipe them out. Did my explanation of the effects of cyanide on the body make any kind of sense to you? (you can look it up). You rely a lot on Youtube, don't you? It's easy to watch a video that supports your side of the story, but if there's even a video available to see it's because it's the "accepted narrative" and approved for sheep consumption. There used to be a time when "the other side of the story" was available on Youtube as well. That was until censorship reared its ugly head. Look up anything on Youtube that shows the German side of the debate and you'll hit a brick wall - unavailable videos and suspended accounts. Yet, you'll find all kinds of videos with heart-wrenching music that portray how bad the Holocaust was. The main cause of death for the prisoners was typhus. Why does no one even acknowledge that there was a typhus epidemic? The reason is, it distracts from the gas chamber narrative. If people accepted the truth about the disease epidemics, then the claims of gas chambers would be more easily questioned - so the solution is "just take typhus out of the equation and everyone will have no choice but to buy what they're told - including you. The displays of hair and other belongings show nothing more than items that once belonged to someone - that's it. Nothing else. You are TOLD that they prove people were gassed and because you're touring a sanctified holy place where you're expected to buy into whatever you're told, it becomes just that in your mind. But go back to the "landfill" offer I made - it's exactly the same thing. These items were confiscated by the Germans because they were infected with typhus. You still have yet to answer the question about why a simple border between two countries made such a difference in the morality of the German army. Why did they feel it was okay to kill Jews in gas chambers in Poland but refrain from the practice in Germany? As you can see, there are all kinds of questions to the official narrative that get ignored - even by you. You don't want facts - facts make you feel too uncomfortable. You want whatever supports your narrative, even if it means stripping whatever you can from the facts and leaving the rest by the wayside.
    • Army Veteran
      Do you know what the Final Solution was? There is not a word contained in it that points to exterminating anyone. The full name is "The Final Solution to the Jewish Question". Shortening it to "Final Solution" does give it an ominous and foreboding sound, doesn't it? And why was it even called the "Final Solution"? In doing so, it makes the assumption that there was a previous "Solution" since you can't have a "Final" anything unless you have a previous "Something". And, indeed, there was a "previous Something" - it was "the Solution to the Jewish Question", otherwise known as the Havaara Agreement. It was an agreement between Zionism and Hitler to relocate the Jews out of Germany. And just by coincidence, by God, that's what the Final Solution to the Jewish Question was all about. Funny how things turned out that way, huh? The reason for removing the Jews from Germany to Poland wasn't to mass exterminate them in gas chambers - the Germans could have done that in Germany. It was to relocate the Jews out of Germany. The British Mandate had closed the doors to Palestine, preventing Jewish immigration there, so that was out of the question (why did they do that if the Jews were in such imminent danger??? - it was because of the McMahon Agreement). There's a lot that you don't know about the Holocaust and WW2 - things that you'll never know if you continue to dance around the facts to follow your own path.
    • Army Veteran
      Here's something you probably didn't know. Although Palestine was handed to the Zionists in 1917, they were forbidden to settle there - there was a condition in the Balfour Declaration that prohibited it. The reason they were forbidden was that Britain knew how they cheated the Arabs in the deal, and allowing the Zionists to start flooding Palestine with Jews would have started their never-ending conflict 30 years earlier than it did. It was because the Arabs were cheated by Britain that Britain prohibited access to Palestine by the Jews during WW2 - again it would have started a conflict that Britain was not prepared to answer for. It wasn't until Britain handed it all over to the United Nations in 1947 that things started to "open up" for the Zionists. When the United Nations took over, the British Mandate was no longer enforceable. And it was the British Mandate that kept the Zionists in check through the enforcement of the condition contained in the Balfour Declaration. With no more British Mandate to hold them back, the Zionists immediately declared Israel a sovereign state and then went after the Arabs. No - it wasn't a fight for their existence - it was an invasion by bullies to deny Palestine its existence.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, the Balfour Declaration was a letter written by British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour to Lionel Walter Rothschild. He expressed the British government's support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Whoever cheated who, keep in mind that the world has never been fair. What would've happened if Israel had lost the 1967 Six-Day War? Would the Palestinians welcome the Jews to share the country??? I don't see anything wrong with an invasion of bullies as you call it. Proverbs 22:7 "The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender’s slave." That's how the world is controlled. *Quintuple Facepalm*
    • Army Veteran
      I see you know nothing about the Balfour Declaration either. Is there anything you do know that you're not supporting with your foundationless homespun prophecies? Anything that includes documented sources to support what you say? ¶ Proverbs 22:7 doesn't seem to count for anything where the Exile of the Jews is concerned, does it? You support the concept of "let the fittest thrive", but when it comes to the Jews reclaiming their Promised Land, suddenly, it becomes "the land was given to them so they should have it back". You're a walking contradiction. (((facepalm)))
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, I understand the Balfour Declaration has caused a lot of inconvenience and how the Palestinians were/are largely ignored. You don't answer my questions and you don't suggest ideas of what can the Palestinians do to become a worthy people in Israel. It is why I speak of the scriptures to support my claims, that Israel will remain a country until the second coming of Jesus Christ. Proverbs 22:7 means, it is the rich who oppress the poor. In other words, the superpowers of the world are in control. So I've asked, and I will ask again, what are you going to do about it, other than sit there wherever you are and complain about Israel's success? Didn't you know your god Donald Trump moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and recognize the city as the capital of Israel??? LOL, too funny!
    • Army Veteran
      "I understand the Balfour Declaration has caused a lot of inconvenience and how the Palestinians were/are largely ignored." - buuut you don't understand the Balfour Declaration itself. Nice to see what I'm dealing with. ¶ What questions "don't I answer"? I've asked a boatload of questions that you've ignored. I don't need to "suggest ideas" of what the Palestinians can do to "become a worthy people". I'm not the one saying they aren't - you are. They legally own the land, so that makes them worthy coming out of the gate. ¶ You speak of something you're calling "scriptures" - are they your own? I've not read the Bible cover-to-cover, but I'm quite sure that there's nothing in it that hands Palestine over to the Zionists in 1948 (or 1936 or any other year you want to claim). ¶ BTW - the Bible is chocked full of Jewish references to the Messiah as being Jesus. What you're having difficulty with is fitting it into your "Torah" reference since you prefer not to walk that path. ¶ "...what are you going to do about it..." - (ROFL). This has to top the "ignorant questions" list. You seriously ask such a diversionary question with a straight face? The rest of your tripe shows a lack of understanding of the things you're trying to defend, but to come out and try to throw it all in my lap - as if I had anything to do with it? You have to be nuts to ask such an asinine question. ¶ Your "...your god Donald Trump" statement sums everything up for me - you're a Liberal sheep who is incapable of thinking for yourself. That's why you have no understanding of what you think you're defending. The Balfour Declaration? ("it gave Palestine to the Jews - that's all I need to know"). Gas Chambers? ("the photos of people's belongings prove it happened")
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, quote: "buuut you don't understand the Balfour Declaration itself." And you don't understand that in 1917 - in order to win Jewish support for Britain's First World War effort, the British Balfour Declaration promised the establishment of a Jewish national home in Ottoman-controlled Palestine. You have not answered my questions of being related to an antisemitic group such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denying the Holocaust, what would have happened if Israel lost the Six-Day War, why should the Palestinians remain in Israel after they have been conquered, do you expect biblical prophecy to be reversed after it foretells the creation of the Jewish nation after WW2, what can you do about it if the Jews bullied their way for their existence and etc. I have no understanding of what I'm defending? Actually, not that I care about the Jews and the Torah, since their teachings don't apply to Christians - I am defending the existence of Israel as a nation for the benefit of Christians based on the return of Jesus Christ who is to come by biblical prophecy. The countdown began after Israel made their independence as I have mentioned. That's why I don't believe Palestinians should be given an inch of land. Trump acknowledges Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, Biden supports the rebuilding of the Third Temple and with the possibility of Trump being reelected, time has been crucial. Boy, do Christians have it right. I already proved the extermination camps in Poland exist. You should try visiting the Auschwitz museum.
    • Army Veteran
      "...in 1917 - in order to win Jewish support for Britain's First World War effort, the British Balfour Declaration promised the establishment of a Jewish national home in Ottoman-controlled Palestine." - Ottoman-controlled Palestine that was promised to the Arabs 2 years prior. ¶ Here's more of a history lesson on that: Britain and Germany were almost at a stalemate. The Zionists (financier Jacob Schiff, to be more precise) helped fund the Bolshevik Revolution so that the Soviets would pull out of the war. This freed up the German troops in the east - which were moved west to increase pressure on Britain. Once Britain's back was against the wall with no way out, Zionism once again "offered a solution" - they would bring in the United States to fight on behalf of the British - and all it would cost Britain was Palestine once they won. The Balfour Declaration was a written promise from Britain that they would keep their end of the bargain (after the way Britain reneged on the deal with the Arabs, the Zionists wanted something in writing). Britain was still uneasy about the deal and that's why they added the condition to not cause trouble with the Arabs already living in Palestine - they knew what the Zionists' intentions were. ¶ I never heard of "Mahmoud Ahmadinejad", nor am I associated (not "related") to any group. I don't need anyone to do my thinking for me. ¶ "...why should the Palestinians remain in Israel after they have been conquered..." - listen to yourself. No matter what facts are placed in front of you, it will always be Palestine's fault - it doesn't matter if they were there first ("they shouldn't have been") or the fact that the McMahon Agreement gave Palestine to the Arabs TWO FULL YEARS before it was handed over to the Zionists - by the same individuals. Why is it that the deal made to the Arabs by the British is automatically void when the British pull the rug out from under them and make the same deal with the Zionists? Is there a magic moment when Britain's credibility becomes pristine? That "magic moment" appears to come when you're talking in support of the Zionists - the same as everything else that is tied to the issue. Your "prophecy" comes from somewhere out in left field if you limit your knowledge of the Torah to just the first 5 books of the Bible simply because the return of the Jews from exile isn't found until later on in Isaiah. ¶ "I already proved the extermination camps in Poland exist. You should try visiting the Auschwitz museum." - Do you ignore facts the moment I give them to you? The belongings on display in that Zionist theme park prove nothing about extermination. There is no proof of gas chambers other than the Soviets' say-so. Is that what you're calling a credible source? How long have you been a Communist? How about eyewitness testimony? Is that your proof? With families being separated upon arrival (they didn't believe in "co-ed" in those days) and so many deaths caused by (get ready for it - it's a term you're not used to hearing...) (((DISEASE))) (typhus, mainly) why would they not believe in gas chambers or anything else that was told to them? Britain had been broadcasting propaganda about gas chambers as early as 1943 - Anne Frank wrote in her diary that her neighbor heard it on the BBC, and Anne Frank was sent to her first labor camp in 1943. So rumors found their way into the camps via the Jews themselves. Then there were the "gas vans" that were supposedly used to kill Jews. No...they were used as mobile disinfectant chambers. It might surprise you to know that they had huge buildings where they could disinfect entire trains - with people inside. See the kind of things you can learn when you take the initiative to do actual research? Cheating, stealing, manipulation, forcing Palestinians into extinction - is this the kind of "peaceful way of life" your "messiah" teaches? Go back and try again.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      Army Veteran, quote: "Ottoman-controlled Palestine that was promised to the Arabs 2 years prior." Nope, the Arabs have plenty of countries in the Middle East. Israel should not have been a concern to them then or in the present. The Balfour Declaration came to be known for many that symbolized one of the Jewish people’s most positive turning points, as it laid the political-legal foundations for the Jewish state. If you're not related to any anti-Semitic groups, you sure sound like them for claiming the Jews should not have their own state. I'll repeat myself if they have bullied their way to take control of Israel - the Palestinians would have done the same if they were given the power to govern the state of Israel. You can't provide any evidence why the Palestinians deserve to be treated with respect when they have been conquered. The word "Palestinian"" derives from the Philistines. Throughout history, Jews and Philistines have been fighting for control of Israel, only this time, every country knows Israel cannot be messed with. Before Anne Frank's death and before WW2 got under way in 1939, the Nazis began experimenting with poison gas for the purpose of mass murder with the killing of patients with mental and physical disabilities in the Euthanasia Program called "Aktion T4." Historians already knew the Nazis operated the gas chambers at Sobibor in 1942 before the mass executions increased at Auschwitz. In response to the Messiah, don't get Christians and Jews mixed up. The eye for eye and tooth for tooth is in the Torah. It is exactly why the Jews have no intentions of sharing their country.
  • Another reason I find the arrogance of Jews offensive when they are telling straight out lies and refuse to even let you comment because they were victims of the holocaust. The way some of them carry on its a pity Hilter didn't kill every last one of them. Ive seen too many Jews have kittens over $5. Majourity of them will fight you for a dollar.
    • Linda Joy
      "Ive seen too many Jews have kittens over $5." If any human had kittens it would be a crime against nature!!
    • Army Veteran
      You're talking about political Zionism, not "the Jews". You might find this interesting: ¶ "At the time, the world was sold on the idea that the Allies were the "good guys" who were justified in everything they did - their Jewish "masters" controlled the media, so their place in the history books gave assurance that their crimes would stay buried. But the truth always has a way of finding its way to the surface, and now they're in a frenzy to avoid being exposed. The "antisemitism" label is nothing more than censorship which is upheld and condemned as "hate speech" by none other than themselves.? ¶ "We implore and beseech our Jewish brethren to realize that the Zionists are not the saviors of the Jewish People and guarantors of their safety, but rather the instigators and original cause of Jewish suffering in the Holy Land and worldwide. The idea that Zionism and the State of "Israel" is the protector of Jews is probably the greatest hoax ever perpetuated on the Jewish people... It has been the age-old intention of Zionism to intentionally stir up anti-Semitism anywhere possible, and even more commonly, to take advantage of any Jewish suffering anywhere in order to enhance its cause. Indeed, hatred of Jews and Jewish suffering is the oxygen of the Zionist movement, and from the very beginning has been used to deliberately incite hatred of the Jew and then, in feigned horror, used to justify the existence of the Zionist state. This is, of course, Machiavellianism raised to the highest degree." - Jews Against Zionism
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      11stevo73, easy there with saying anything bad about the Shews. You can get in trouble if not into serious trouble. Think of Kanye West. I once asked a question on Answerbag, asking who is harder to convert into Christianity: Atheists or Shews, and my question was deleted hours later and I was put in the penalty box for 30 days.
    • 11stevo73
      As If i care about being rubbed out least of my problems. Ive done more than 1 plenty box here irrelevant. Ill never work on another synagogue or a Jews house as long as I live.
    • Jenny Rizzo is brilliant ⭐
      11stevo73, I like how you are not afraid to speak your mind. America needs more people like you. We do have free speech, although with the rise of social media, America's freedom of speech is being limited. I was shocked when I saw this video: https://youtu.be/VCnNf8YSYFk The Shews say it is their right to express themselves freely, but what about Kanye West and everyone else who want to feel free to voice their opinions? See what I mean? It is what it is.

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